America burns

[Dwayne Pipes]

Armed forces and Police are taught to shoot at the largest target ,the torso no fucking about
Cop films and cowboys isn’t real life.

[Towie]

As said mate I’m no arms expert but this is a routine arrest, not the middle of a fucking war zone.

[Whiskyman]

Would NEVE NEVER happen in this country ? Nonsense old chap. Two incidents come readily to mind, The bloke (Brazilan ?) who was shot and died shortly after the tube bombings and the bloke in Hackney who was suspected of carrying a weapon , and was shot, and the weapon turned out to be a chair leg.

I'm sure there are probably other instances. And as Newmarket has pointed out the officer in question probably felt his life was in danger in the split second he (presumably) had to make a decision. Thankfully I've never faced a gun, I suspect you haven't either, but if I thought someone was pulling a gun on me and I had a weapon to defend myself I don't think I can honestly say I'd wait to see if my assailant's gun was loaded, or fake.

You will Never Ever be shot in the UK for falling asleep in your car Mate ....or shot in the back while fleeing a drunk drive arrest..
.

Maybe not. Possibly because the police here aren't armed as a matter of course. However to the best of my knowledge, and I'm prepared to be corrected if someone knows otherwise, no one has ever been shot in the US for carrying a chair leg as happened to Harry Stanley in, I think, Hackney.

Fact is the British police are pretty damn incompetent. Under 8% , fucking EIGHT percent, of crimes result in a charge. A charge mind you, not necessarily an actual conviction proving they got the right culprit. That figure is pathetic, There's no other word for it. So I have no doubt that if the incompetent souls who police us were armed as a matter of routine their incompetence and inefficiency would very soon manifest itself in the sort of incidents you've mentioned.

[palerider]

I've got this really radical solution that will stop black people getting shot by cops in the US.

Don't break the law.

I can't see why all of the politicians, activists and outraged media luvvies hadn't thought of it.

[Flairon]

I've got this really radical solution that will stop black people getting shot by cops in the US.

Don't break the law.

I can't see why all of the politicians, activists and outraged media luvvies hadn't thought of it.

The EMT who was at home sleeping was not and had not broken any laws when she was shot by the police.

The counselor who was trying to calm an autistic chap in Miami also had done no wrong when shot by the police

You will Never Ever be shot in the UK for falling asleep in your car Mate ....or shot in the back while fleeing a drunk drive arrest..
.

Maybe not. Possibly because the police here aren't armed as a matter of course. However to the best of my knowledge, and I'm prepared to be corrected if someone knows otherwise, no one has ever been shot in the US for carrying a chair leg as happened to Harry Stanley in, I think, Hackney.

Fact is the British police are pretty damn incompetent. Under 8% , fucking EIGHT percent, of crimes result in a charge. A charge mind you, not necessarily an actual conviction proving they got the right culprit. That figure is pathetic, There's no other word for it. So I have no doubt that if the incompetent souls who police us were armed as a matter of routine their incompetence and inefficiency would very soon manifest itself in the sort of incidents you've mentioned.

[Flairon]

It is reported that the U.S. shoots, kills and imprisons more people than any other developed country.

[mkhammer]

Think the case you referring to mate the guy seemed to stagger towards the officers was told to move back..didn't... was
pushed back and fell..

You have to ask yourself why do police officers want to carry personal cameras...in any confrontation they will be
correct in what they are doing 95% plus of the time.....Old bill were far worse years ago...I've seen it...met some not very nice
ones...but like keep saying.....it's a tough old job now...and now and again the person you push back,because they wont
listen will fall...it happens...
There's Thousands of Police/Public interactions everyday....all get filmed now...one or two make to YouTube....

The provocation now is extreme...and your responses are limited.

No, mate it was Ian Tomlinson, who wasn't even part of the protest. The only staggering he did was as a result of an unprovoked assault.



Watch the video.

It as the incident thought you were referring to Nev..

First of all...that broke my heart...poor guy..and totally agree bad policework...undisciplined and looks like a bully to boot..
doubt he would have hit and pushed a 6'2" bloke in a sleeveless T with England and Millwall tats all over him...

I'm not overly defending the old bill blindly....just taking each incident and the general attitude and job they have as I see it.

So this one...Ian appeared and I thought on seeing for the first time was Drunk...seemed to be staggering.. maybe wrong
word.. lolling maybe.....the old bill had been told to get to an area and clear or hold a crowd.....Ian was in the way....
The Arsehole of a cop...treats it as if he is in riot patrol...hitting the legs and pushing back....again he WAS out of order..
but Normality sometimes goes out the window...when your confronting 500 pissed up rioters that would love to kick
the shit out of you....or maybe set you alight.............

I honestly can't see were Ians internal injury that killed him came from....was hit on the legs....he was pushed,but seen worse,
I Honestly thought he had a problem to begin with...he didn't look right...before the blow to the legs.
Did have heart problems....maybe he collapsed and fell earlier....he def wasn't right.
Again not defending the copper...just as I saw it......this might have been taken into account when charges were dropped/
cleared....


As much as the copper is prob a bullying arsehole...might be a great copper that "Lost it"...we don't know...be hard to charge
him for much on the strength of that....think he was just sacked...can't remember TBH....

I do recall or remember reading somewhere Keir Starmer was head of the CPS at the time...decided not to prosecute...as he did with
the Brazilian Bomber thing.......he'd be all over anyone not prosecuting now......but that's politics for you....

[mkhammer]

You will Never Ever be shot in the UK for falling asleep in your car Mate ....or shot in the back while fleeing a drunk drive arrest..
.

Maybe not. Possibly because the police here aren't armed as a matter of course. However to the best of my knowledge, and I'm prepared to be corrected if someone knows otherwise, no one has ever been shot in the US for carrying a chair leg as happened to Harry Stanley in, I think, Hackney.

Fact is the British police are pretty damn incompetent. Under 8% , fucking EIGHT percent, of crimes result in a charge. A charge mind you, not necessarily an actual conviction proving they got the right culprit. That figure is pathetic, There's no other word for it. So I have no doubt that if the incompetent souls who police us were armed as a matter of routine their incompetence and inefficiency would very soon manifest itself in the sort of incidents you've mentioned.

I'm gonna have to get a job in the Home Office....Police PR Consultant or something.....

I've seen some shit stuff done by them....Personally on me as well....so I do get it.....don't get me started on the brummie
old bill when comes to footie....fuckin thugs.....

But they get a bad rap on the whole for what now is a bloody tough job....so here we go....

The Guy was as far as old bill were concerned was concealing a weapon...mentioned that before about it....does he or
doesn't he....do we let him take a pot shot at someone or not.....what would you do....

The CPS/Court Services prosecute...old bill arrest,get and present evidence then it's out of their hands....they're prob as
pissed off with some of it as you and me....Moreso...a lot Moreso...seeing some creep get Com Ser...for mugging
an old ladies...in their homes... for the 4th time...
Walking out of court laughing...

Might be tempted to harris the little fucker with a few trumped Stop and searches....wind him up a little bit....

[Whiskyman]

Maybe not. Possibly because the police here aren't armed as a matter of course. However to the best of my knowledge, and I'm prepared to be corrected if someone knows otherwise, no one has ever been shot in the US for carrying a chair leg as happened to Harry Stanley in, I think, Hackney.

Fact is the British police are pretty damn incompetent. Under 8% , fucking EIGHT percent, of crimes result in a charge. A charge mind you, not necessarily an actual conviction proving they got the right culprit. That figure is pathetic, There's no other word for it. So I have no doubt that if the incompetent souls who police us were armed as a matter of routine their incompetence and inefficiency would very soon manifest itself in the sort of incidents you've mentioned.

I'm gonna have to get a job in the Home Office....Police PR Consultant or something.....

I've seen some shit stuff done by them....Personally on me as well....so I do get it.....don't get me started on the brummie
old bill when comes to footie....fuckin thugs.....

But they get a bad rap on the whole for what now is a bloody tough job....so here we go....

The Guy was as far as old bill were concerned was concealing a weapon...mentioned that before about it....does he or
doesn't he....do we let him take a pot shot at someone or not.....what would you do....

The CPS/Court Services prosecute...old bill arrest,get and present evidence then it's out of their hands....they're prob as
pissed off with some of it as you and me....Moreso...a lot Moreso...seeing some creep get Com Ser...for mugging
an old ladies...in their homes... for the 4th time...
Walking out of court laughing...

Might be tempted to harris the little fucker with a few trumped Stop and searches....wind him up a little bit....

No one is denying it's a tough job. But the job is equally tough in the US where guns owned and used by criminals are much more prevalent than they are here. So I cannot accept that what sometimes happens in the US can't happen here. It does and it has. And would no doubt happen more if our police were given the latest weaponry to brandish at will.

And tough job or not a rate of 8% of reported crimes ending up in court, and to add insult to injury many, as you say, unsuccessfully prosecuted is a national scandal imo. Like many on here I've been on juries (been called for duty twice FFS) and I remember very well on one occasion when a bloke who was as guilty as sin was released because the old bill completely fucked up the evidence chain. Case never got to us lot because the Judge dismissed the case due to police incompetence contaminating the evidence.

Did heads roll ? I bet you know the answer to that, don't you.

[Neville Bartos]

No, mate it was Ian Tomlinson, who wasn't even part of the protest. The only staggering he did was as a result of an unprovoked assault.



Watch the video.

It as the incident thought you were referring to Nev..

First of all...that broke my heart...poor guy..and totally agree bad policework...undisciplined and looks like a bully to boot..
doubt he would have hit and pushed a 6'2" bloke in a sleeveless T with England and Millwall tats all over him...

I'm not overly defending the old bill blindly....just taking each incident and the general attitude and job they have as I see it.

So this one...Ian appeared and I thought on seeing for the first time was Drunk...seemed to be staggering.. maybe wrong
word.. lolling maybe.....the old bill had been told to get to an area and clear or hold a crowd.....Ian was in the way....
The Arsehole of a cop...treats it as if he is in riot patrol...hitting the legs and pushing back....again he WAS out of order..
but Normality sometimes goes out the window...when your confronting 500 pissed up rioters that would love to kick
the shit out of you....or maybe set you alight.............

I honestly can't see were Ians internal injury that killed him came from....was hit on the legs....he was pushed,but seen worse,
I Honestly thought he had a problem to begin with...he didn't look right...before the blow to the legs.
Did have heart problems....maybe he collapsed and fell earlier....he def wasn't right.
Again not defending the copper...just as I saw it......this might have been taken into account when charges were dropped/
cleared....


As much as the copper is prob a bullying arsehole...might be a great copper that "Lost it"...we don't know...be hard to charge
him for much on the strength of that....think he was just sacked...can't remember TBH....

I do recall or remember reading somewhere Keir Starmer was head of the CPS at the time...decided not to prosecute...as he did with
the Brazilian Bomber thing.......he'd be all over anyone not prosecuting now......but that's politics for you....

The point I was making is that officers getting away Scott free with that kind of behaviour is normal.
It's not about that being normal police behaviour, because it probably isn't. It's that bad policing is rarely brought to account.
This is what affects perception, because it gains attention. If you can't trust one police person, you can't trust any of them.

Add this to what appears to be a focus on proactive policing rather than reactive policing, and the perception that police will go out of their way, depending on who reports an incident -- half a dozen officers showing up at a man's door because he complained to a traffic warden. As opposed to no police attending a burglary where a man had cctv footage of people stealing a quad bike -- and it's a sorry mess.

I'm entirely against preventative policing because A) there's no evidence it works, and B) it takes officers away from investigating actual crimes.
Police phoning people, or visiting them at their homes because they've tweeted something someone else has perceived as 'hateful' . How can this be a reasonable use of resources when we're told crime is increasing because the police are understaffed?

We know the police look unfavourably on those seen to be grassing on their own, and in my opinion that's where the problems begin. But it goes further, we have the CPS and the IPCC both favouring the constabularys side, irrespective of the evidence, when it comes to complaints and prosecutions.

Im with people when they say it all needs to be reformed. There's a distinct lack of impartiality throughout the entire system. A lack of focus on solving actual crime. And way too much focus on preventative policing.
Add to this that the police seem under trained in what the law says, and way too reliant on the belief that their interpretation and word is the law, and it's hard to see a way of fixing the existing system.

I saw some advice online that if you can, you should, record any interaction with the police for your own safety and protection. Because it really is a roll of the dice.