Read all about it!

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ToneLoc
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by ToneLoc » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:19 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:07 pm
ToneLoc wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:10 pm

Completely agree that the dire top to bottom state of the “football” is the catalyst to the unrest.
The stadium move clearly isn’t the catalyst otherwise where was that when things were going relatively well last season?
My point is that the stadium move becomes the iconic centre-piece for anti-board sentiment when the football, as often it does turns to shite.
I would say that I’m relatively in-touch with the current groundswell and from my viewpoint there’s at least as much anger at leaving Upton Park as there is our current league position. The latter appears to spur on the former.

Do I know this for certain? Of course not, none of us do.
Perhaps my earlier highlighted point was a little presumptuous ;)
Tone. I suspect you still attend matches. I don't. So your perceptions are certainly more likely to be accurate that what I might think. But my point, and I think we fundamentally agree on the underlying issues, is that the persistent (as I see it), dewy eyed nostalgic whining about the move is actually deflecting from the salient issue, which is the basic and obvious fact the Dildo Brothers haven't a clue how to run a football club.

Whoever the owners are we cannot ever return to Upton Park. That is an undeniable fact. But it is also highly likely that, no matter who the next owners happen to be, they can hardly prove to be less competent than the present ones. And all I am saying is that business competency is the issue that should be focused on and not some stupid and pointless pining for a mythical golden age. FFS it's not that far back in time and we all know the club's history, apart from a brief spell between 1964 and 1980 and a "one off" in 85/86 has hardly been fucking golden. A fortress ? Upton Park never was that FFS. Any of us who have had season tickets over the past 20 or 30 years will happily attest to that.

Focus on the things that can be improved, not the things that are done and dusted.
Whisk, I get the impression we are, more or less saying the same thing in different words :)
But where we differ is that, in my view I see a raw and justified undercurrent of hatred & rage, initially fuelled by the onset of more piss-poor football that has reopened old wounds on the stadium move because that move is essentially tied to the results due to what the supporters feel they were "mis-sold".
The move issue springs up each time because people want to hold them to account over a chain of false promises and lies. So, I don't see how you can just remove the "move" from the equation.

If it were up to me, I would be using the stadium move as fuel to gain numbers, momentum & media attention but my actual agenda would be to "first fix the football" and then focus on other identity-based issues.
If the moans and groans were simply just about the running of the club and the football then I doubt much of this general momentum would've been gained and you and I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

There is a principal split in this whole affair which runs between those who's agenda is simply to harass them until they sell up and those who think this is unrealistic and want them to start running the club like a "football" club.
So, if you're in the first camp then the "move" and "sold a lie" type rhetoric will be all over your banners because it's a very simple, binary "in our out" position.
If you're in the second (which I would hazard a guess is where you are?)....then the more pragmatic "focus on what CAN be done" will be the order of the day.

For me? Either will do....perhaps that explains why I'm seeing it from both sides.
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by palerider » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:47 am

ToneLoc wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:19 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:07 pm


Tone. I suspect you still attend matches. I don't. So your perceptions are certainly more likely to be accurate that what I might think. But my point, and I think we fundamentally agree on the underlying issues, is that the persistent (as I see it), dewy eyed nostalgic whining about the move is actually deflecting from the salient issue, which is the basic and obvious fact the Dildo Brothers haven't a clue how to run a football club.

Whoever the owners are we cannot ever return to Upton Park. That is an undeniable fact. But it is also highly likely that, no matter who the next owners happen to be, they can hardly prove to be less competent than the present ones. And all I am saying is that business competency is the issue that should be focused on and not some stupid and pointless pining for a mythical golden age. FFS it's not that far back in time and we all know the club's history, apart from a brief spell between 1964 and 1980 and a "one off" in 85/86 has hardly been fucking golden. A fortress ? Upton Park never was that FFS. Any of us who have had season tickets over the past 20 or 30 years will happily attest to that.

Focus on the things that can be improved, not the things that are done and dusted.
Whisk, I get the impression we are, more or less saying the same thing in different words :)
But where we differ is that, in my view I see a raw and justified undercurrent of hatred & rage, initially fuelled by the onset of more piss-poor football that has reopened old wounds on the stadium move because that move is essentially tied to the results due to what the supporters feel they were "mis-sold".
The move issue springs up each time because people want to hold them to account over a chain of false promises and lies. So, I don't see how you can just remove the "move" from the equation.

If it were up to me, I would be using the stadium move as fuel to gain numbers, momentum & media attention but my actual agenda would be to "first fix the football" and then focus on other identity-based issues.
If the moans and groans were simply just about the running of the club and the football then I doubt much of this general momentum would've been gained and you and I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

There is a principal split in this whole affair which runs between those who's agenda is simply to harass them until they sell up and those who think this is unrealistic and want them to start running the club like a "football" club.
So, if you're in the first camp then the "move" and "sold a lie" type rhetoric will be all over your banners because it's a very simple, binary "in our out" position.
If you're in the second (which I would hazard a guess is where you are?)....then the more pragmatic "focus on what CAN be done" will be the order of the day.

For me? Either will do....perhaps that explains why I'm seeing it from both sides.
Only once have I been inside the bowl when there's been anything close to an atmosphere. Ok, I was there for the opening league game which was surreal and a shit match anyway. But it does happen.

So, and I was for the move at the time as like a mug I believed them, the easy thing to fix is the team. Do that and the protests would calm down. As people like watching a success on the pitch.

It was interesting listening to a close friend of mine who supports Southend but has recently gone as a guest to both the ILS and the Vermindrome. And he said he actually felt more connected to the match at the ILS, which was a damn-sight easier to get to as well because of the warp-speed transport links. At the Spuds' shit-pit he was in the gods, a long, long way from the grassy bit.

Which tells me that whatever the club, if you have a big capacity ground, not everyone will be close to the action. And Whisky's right. It's done. We can't move back.

But Statler & Waldorf can do the other. Aston Villa had the second biggest net spend over the last year. 140 million quid. Only second to Real Madrid. You can argue that they are only a place ahead of us, but it was money spent transforming a Championship side.

But of course they won't. Which is why they have to be removed.

Some would say piece by piece.

But I'm not a violent man.
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ToneLoc
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by ToneLoc » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:05 am

palerider wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:47 am
ToneLoc wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:19 am

Whisk, I get the impression we are, more or less saying the same thing in different words :)
But where we differ is that, in my view I see a raw and justified undercurrent of hatred & rage, initially fuelled by the onset of more piss-poor football that has reopened old wounds on the stadium move because that move is essentially tied to the results due to what the supporters feel they were "mis-sold".
The move issue springs up each time because people want to hold them to account over a chain of false promises and lies. So, I don't see how you can just remove the "move" from the equation.

If it were up to me, I would be using the stadium move as fuel to gain numbers, momentum & media attention but my actual agenda would be to "first fix the football" and then focus on other identity-based issues.
If the moans and groans were simply just about the running of the club and the football then I doubt much of this general momentum would've been gained and you and I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

There is a principal split in this whole affair which runs between those who's agenda is simply to harass them until they sell up and those who think this is unrealistic and want them to start running the club like a "football" club.
So, if you're in the first camp then the "move" and "sold a lie" type rhetoric will be all over your banners because it's a very simple, binary "in our out" position.
If you're in the second (which I would hazard a guess is where you are?)....then the more pragmatic "focus on what CAN be done" will be the order of the day.

For me? Either will do....perhaps that explains why I'm seeing it from both sides.
Only once have I been inside the bowl when there's been anything close to an atmosphere. Ok, I was there for the opening league game which was surreal and a shit match anyway. But it does happen.

So, and I was for the move at the time as like a mug I believed them, the easy thing to fix is the team. Do that and the protests would calm down. As people like watching a success on the pitch.

It was interesting listening to a close friend of mine who supports Southend but has recently gone as a guest to both the ILS and the Vermindrome. And he said he actually felt more connected to the match at the ILS, which was a damn-sight easier to get to as well because of the warp-speed transport links. At the Spuds' shit-pit he was in the gods, a long, long way from the grassy bit.

Which tells me that whatever the club, if you have a big capacity ground, not everyone will be close to the action. And Whisky's right. It's done. We can't move back.

But Statler & Waldorf can do the other. Aston Villa had the second biggest net spend over the last year. 140 million quid. Only second to Real Madrid. You can argue that they are only a place ahead of us, but it was money spent transforming a Championship side.

But of course they won't. Which is why they have to be removed.

Some would say piece by piece.

But I'm not a violent man.
Classic case of "the first camp" there :)
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Whiskyman
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by Whiskyman » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:21 am

ToneLoc wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:19 am

There is a principal split in this whole affair which runs between those who's agenda is simply to harass them until they sell up and those who think this is unrealistic and want them to start running the club like a "football" club.
So, if you're in the first camp then the "move" and "sold a lie" type rhetoric will be all over your banners because it's a very simple, binary "in our out" position.
If you're in the second (which I would hazard a guess is where you are?)....then the more pragmatic "focus on what CAN be done" will be the order of the day.

For me? Either will do....perhaps that explains why I'm seeing it from both sides.
You're not wrong. I've never believed in wasting time and effort on things which can't be achieved. Which is why I think it's far better to accept what's happened and look to move on in a positive and constructive, progressive way.

Which will of course only be achieved under new ownership. And that can only be achieved when someone with a significant bank balance expresses an interest. And that interest will, if it ever comes, I wouldn't mind guessing, be from people who see the LS as an integral part of the club's infrastructure.

So ironically because we are at the LS we've got far more chance of the Dildo Brothers being bought out because they pushed through the move. ;)

And I agree with you btw. We are singing from the same hymn sheet, although probably different hymns.
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by mkhammer » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:12 am

We're where we are..thats it..end of...it's our ground, its where we play and in our lifetimes,
always will be.....Uptons gone ..a memory....But..
Doesn't mean I still don't love it and miss it with a Passion,and will talk and reminisce about her
as much as poss.
It's not just the ground..it's the pubs and all the other shit,we all know what..
But don't dwell Negatively on it.

Exactly like moving house...you love it where you are...but you need another bedroom/work,
whatever,so you move...the whole moving thing should still be positive,even tho you miss your
old place terribly..
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by ToneLoc » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:52 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:21 am
ToneLoc wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:19 am

There is a principal split in this whole affair which runs between those who's agenda is simply to harass them until they sell up and those who think this is unrealistic and want them to start running the club like a "football" club.
So, if you're in the first camp then the "move" and "sold a lie" type rhetoric will be all over your banners because it's a very simple, binary "in our out" position.
If you're in the second (which I would hazard a guess is where you are?)....then the more pragmatic "focus on what CAN be done" will be the order of the day.

For me? Either will do....perhaps that explains why I'm seeing it from both sides.
So ironically because we are at the LS we've got far more chance of the Dildo Brothers being bought out because they pushed through the move. ;)
That is a nice little bit of irony :)
Many want them out because of the relocation but there's more chance of them being bought out because of the relocation.
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by JayK » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:39 am

No matter whether Upton Park is gone or not, I really don’t like our new place. Not wishing we were still at UP, just wish we’d moved to a proper football stadium. Just a completely different feel to this place and zero buzz for me. So I guess I’ll be miserable with the new “home” coz we ain’t going anywhere else now. One of many reasons the season ticket wasn’t renewed last year or year before.
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by mkhammer » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:01 am

Would be interesting to see what we all thought about the Iconic...atmosphere etc...
if we were sat where say...Chelsea are now...

I mean how much of it is results driven......Upton went from the biggest buzz in the world to being
very flat at times...
Cos been a few time when the noise and atmosphere has been as good as I've heard anywhere,so it
is doable...
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by terrya1965 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:24 am

mkhammer wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:01 am
Would be interesting to see what we all thought about the Iconic...atmosphere etc...
if we were sat where say...Chelsea are now...

I mean how much of it is results driven......Upton went from the biggest buzz in the world to being
very flat at times...
Cos been a few time when the noise and atmosphere has been as good as I've heard anywhere,so it
is doable...
With all seater,you never get the buzz and atmosphere like when it was all standing.The last night at UP was very special,but that`s because everyone knew it was the last ever time,so that atmosphere was surreal.
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Re: Read all about it!

Post by h69 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:31 am

terrya1965 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:24 am
mkhammer wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:01 am
Would be interesting to see what we all thought about the Iconic...atmosphere etc...
if we were sat where say...Chelsea are now...

I mean how much of it is results driven......Upton went from the biggest buzz in the world to being
very flat at times...
Cos been a few time when the noise and atmosphere has been as good as I've heard anywhere,so it
is doable...
With all seater,you never get the buzz and atmosphere like when it was all standing.The last night at UP was very special,but that`s because everyone knew it was the last ever time,so that atmosphere was surreal.
yes....other than that, the atmosphere also died at UP when the seats went in.
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