Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

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Romford
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Romford » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:58 am

h69 wrote:
No way do I want us to go down. The reason I went on Saturday was to support a football team. Nothing else....I dont care about all this bullshit rhetoric about stadia, popcorn, accounts, toilets, seating etc because I see football as only a pastime and I have a very good seat and view...I've only missed one game this season home or away but its not the most important thing in my entire life. My family is.

Do I like the board....not really but I have not liked any of them

Do I think the fans are making far too much of it.....yes and they were quite embarassing....most of those who were demonstrating just want to get on TV and are completely deluded. Running over and having a go at Mark Noble or grabbing the corner flag....really ? Just makes us look embarassing again.

Do I think Saturday showed we have a lot of fans that are a bunch of muppets with no life .....yes

Someone called Anthony wrote a really good piece on KUMB recently ...... I c+p it below because I agree with it.

On the tube on the way back home from the game (yes, I left just before the 3rd goal....) I met the guy who ran on with the corner flag. The conversation I had with him was deeply bittersweet; he allowed me to criticise him, accepted that to some degree his action was wrong (ruefully telling me he'd had his season ticket removed and faced a £2k fine plus a criminal record) but struck me as past caring. Despite my belief that the actions of him and his fellow pitch-invaders had precisely the negative effect on the team that I'd feared these protests would (there was still time for us to get an equaliser) I almost felt sorry for him; he said he hadn't planned it, 'something just snapped.' In many ways he appeared to embody exactly the type of West Ham fan alluded to by Big Sam in his infamous 'deluded' remark; in this guy's eyes we should (or deserve to) be up there with The Big Six and it's all G&S' fault that we're not; I pointed out that this belief went against over 100 years of our history (during which, as a recent book about London football has pointed out, we have only finished as the number one club in London three - count 'em - times) and that despite all the outward trappings (the mansion etc) G&S are nowhere near the same financial ballpark as the owners of The Big Six. Yes, they made some exaggerated claims about the benefits of the stadium move in much the same way that the makers of Lynx tell adolescent males that if they splash it on then knickers will drop all around them but did anyone really take all that with anything other than a large pinch of salt? When he said we ought to be finishing at least seventh or eighth he essentially summed up for me what I have always felt these latest round of protests are really about; after that glorious first season under Bilic we've endured another two of more typical West Ham scrappiness made worse (in my view) by horrendous injury problems denying the team any sort of consistency in selection and performance. Couple this with what the fans see as G&S' 'betrayal' and there you have it. I have no doubt at all that if we were indeed where Burnley are now NONE of this would be happening; yes, there would still be moans and gripes about the stadium (all of which I heartily share) but that would be it. After Saturday's pitch invasions there's no doubt in my mind that it's all getting to the players and for that reason alone it's got to stop. Mercifully we now have a 3-week break before the Southampton game. Up to Burnley scoring I felt reasonably confident we would score the one goal needed to win that game; I still believe we'll stay up but only if both the players and fans can summon up the Greatest Escape spirit when an unlikely 7 wins in our last 9 games rescued an infinitely worse season than this one under owners who I seem to recall had made far more grandiose promises than G&S only for those to dissolve into the near-bankruptcy and liquidation from which - like it or not - G&S rescued us. It's the West Ham Way, guys, nothing to get so exercised about, but if you truly love this club then on 31st March leave your negativity at the turnstile and get behind the team.


I thought the team got great support Saturday...better than i expected anyway.

I agree that there were an awful lot of people there ready for us to go and goal down.....and that happening opened the floodgates to a lot of actions that were pre-meditated.

If you have been to as many games as you say (and i don't think you are lying)...I think the know the previous few results from Brighton away have seen the team getting great backing and not pulling up any trees.

I really find the "support" line a bit overplayed...IMHO obviously.

One last thing....I know the fella with the flag well. I defo don't agree with his actions on Saturday (sorry Bubbles ;) ) but his support over many decades allows him the right to make a few iffys moves.
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Chicken Runner
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Chicken Runner » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:34 pm

h69 wrote:
Romford wrote:I'd like a pound note for every time ive said this over the past 48 hours...are you prepared to go down maybe even do a Sunderland to get rid of these muppets running our club ??

In my eyes....i would take it happily.

I know there is no guarentee that they will get on their toes whatever league we are in...but while they are in charge they will never ever put enough in for us to be able to even compete in this league.

I would also have no problems getting rid of a few of the new fans we have attracted.


No way do I want us to go down. The reason I went on Saturday was to support a football team. Nothing else....I dont care about all this bullshit rhetoric about stadia, popcorn, accounts, toilets, seating etc because I see football as only a pastime and I have a very good
seat and view...I've only missed one game this season home or away but its not the most important thing in my entire life. My family is.

Do I like the board....not really but I have not liked any of them

Do I think the fans are making far too much of it.....yes and they were quite embarassing....most of those who were demonstrating just want to get on TV and are completely deluded. Running over and having a go at Mark Noble or grabbing the corner flag....really ? Just makes us look embarassing again.

Do I think Saturday showed we have a lot of fans that are a bunch of muppets with no life .....yes

Someone called Anthony wrote a really good piece on KUMB recently ...... I c+p it below because I agree with it.

On the tube on the way back home from the game (yes, I left just before the 3rd goal....) I met the guy who ran on with the corner flag. The conversation I had with him was deeply bittersweet; he allowed me to criticise him, accepted that to some degree his action was wrong (ruefully telling me he'd had his season ticket removed and faced a £2k fine plus a criminal record) but struck me as past caring. Despite my belief that the actions of him and his fellow pitch-invaders had precisely the negative effect on the team that I'd feared these protests would (there was still time for us to get an equaliser) I almost felt sorry for him; he said he hadn't planned it, 'something just snapped.' In many ways he appeared to embody exactly the type of West Ham fan alluded to by Big Sam in his infamous 'deluded' remark; in this guy's eyes we should (or deserve to) be up there with The Big Six and it's all G&S' fault that we're not; I pointed out that this belief went against over 100 years of our history (during which, as a recent book about London football has pointed out, we have only finished as the number one club in London three - count 'em - times) and that despite all the outward trappings (the mansion etc) G&S are nowhere near the same financial ballpark as the owners of The Big Six. Yes, they made some exaggerated claims about the benefits of the stadium move in much the same way that the makers of Lynx tell adolescent males that if they splash it on then knickers will drop all around them but did anyone really take all that with anything other than a large pinch of salt? When he said we ought to be finishing at least seventh or eighth he essentially summed up for me what I have always felt these latest round of protests are really about; after that glorious first season under Bilic we've endured another two of more typical West Ham scrappiness made worse (in my view) by horrendous injury problems denying the team any sort of consistency in selection and performance. Couple this with what the fans see as G&S' 'betrayal' and there you have it. I have no doubt at all that if we were indeed where Burnley are now NONE of this would be happening; yes, there would still be moans and gripes about the stadium (all of which I heartily share) but that would be it. After Saturday's pitch invasions there's no doubt in my mind that it's all getting to the players and for that reason alone it's got to stop. Mercifully we now have a 3-week break before the Southampton game. Up to Burnley scoring I felt reasonably confident we would score the one goal needed to win that game; I still believe we'll stay up but only if both the players and fans can summon up the Greatest Escape spirit when an unlikely 7 wins in our last 9 games rescued an infinitely worse season than this one under owners who I seem to recall had made far more grandiose promises than G&S only for those to dissolve into the near-bankruptcy and liquidation from which - like it or not - G&S rescued us. It's the West Ham Way, guys, nothing to get so exercised about, but if you truly love this club then on 31st March leave your negativity at the turnstile and get behind the team.


A man of reason among mayhem!
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Romford
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Romford » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:38 pm

Where has reason got us the past few years ?
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h69
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby h69 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:43 pm

Romford wrote:
h69 wrote:
No way do I want us to go down. The reason I went on Saturday was to support a football team. Nothing else....I dont care about all this bullshit rhetoric about stadia, popcorn, accounts, toilets, seating etc because I see football as only a pastime and I have a very good seat and view...I've only missed one game this season home or away but its not the most important thing in my entire life. My family is.

Do I like the board....not really but I have not liked any of them

Do I think the fans are making far too much of it.....yes and they were quite embarassing....most of those who were demonstrating just want to get on TV and are completely deluded. Running over and having a go at Mark Noble or grabbing the corner flag....really ? Just makes us look embarassing again.

Do I think Saturday showed we have a lot of fans that are a bunch of muppets with no life .....yes

Someone called Anthony wrote a really good piece on KUMB recently ...... I c+p it below because I agree with it.

On the tube on the way back home from the game (yes, I left just before the 3rd goal....) I met the guy who ran on with the corner flag. The conversation I had with him was deeply bittersweet; he allowed me to criticise him, accepted that to some degree his action was wrong (ruefully telling me he'd had his season ticket removed and faced a £2k fine plus a criminal record) but struck me as past caring. Despite my belief that the actions of him and his fellow pitch-invaders had precisely the negative effect on the team that I'd feared these protests would (there was still time for us to get an equaliser) I almost felt sorry for him; he said he hadn't planned it, 'something just snapped.' In many ways he appeared to embody exactly the type of West Ham fan alluded to by Big Sam in his infamous 'deluded' remark; in this guy's eyes we should (or deserve to) be up there with The Big Six and it's all G&S' fault that we're not; I pointed out that this belief went against over 100 years of our history (during which, as a recent book about London football has pointed out, we have only finished as the number one club in London three - count 'em - times) and that despite all the outward trappings (the mansion etc) G&S are nowhere near the same financial ballpark as the owners of The Big Six. Yes, they made some exaggerated claims about the benefits of the stadium move in much the same way that the makers of Lynx tell adolescent males that if they splash it on then knickers will drop all around them but did anyone really take all that with anything other than a large pinch of salt? When he said we ought to be finishing at least seventh or eighth he essentially summed up for me what I have always felt these latest round of protests are really about; after that glorious first season under Bilic we've endured another two of more typical West Ham scrappiness made worse (in my view) by horrendous injury problems denying the team any sort of consistency in selection and performance. Couple this with what the fans see as G&S' 'betrayal' and there you have it. I have no doubt at all that if we were indeed where Burnley are now NONE of this would be happening; yes, there would still be moans and gripes about the stadium (all of which I heartily share) but that would be it. After Saturday's pitch invasions there's no doubt in my mind that it's all getting to the players and for that reason alone it's got to stop. Mercifully we now have a 3-week break before the Southampton game. Up to Burnley scoring I felt reasonably confident we would score the one goal needed to win that game; I still believe we'll stay up but only if both the players and fans can summon up the Greatest Escape spirit when an unlikely 7 wins in our last 9 games rescued an infinitely worse season than this one under owners who I seem to recall had made far more grandiose promises than G&S only for those to dissolve into the near-bankruptcy and liquidation from which - like it or not - G&S rescued us. It's the West Ham Way, guys, nothing to get so exercised about, but if you truly love this club then on 31st March leave your negativity at the turnstile and get behind the team.


I thought the team got great support Saturday...better than i expected anyway.

I agree that there were an awful lot of people there ready for us to go and goal down.....and that happening opened the floodgates to a lot of actions that were pre-meditated.

If you have been to as many games as you say (and i don't think you are lying)...I think the know the previous few results from Brighton away have seen the team getting great backing and not pulling up any trees.

I really find the "support" line a bit overplayed...IMHO obviously.

One last thing....I know the fella with the flag well. I defo don't agree with his actions on Saturday (sorry Bubbles ;) ) but his support over many decades allows him the right to make a few iffys moves.


Hi Romford

Fair enough on your mate but it was a stupid thing to do.

I thought the support was shit on Saturday, People were sitting their in silence waiting for a problem, granted it was a poor performance (by both teams first half) but it was pisspoor. Atmosphere is from people not a ground....we managed even against Leicester let alone Spurs and Chelsea...why not now when they need us...It was good at Brighton and Liverpool though I agree

Anyway.....im just a bit pissed off. Just listening to the media and some mates this morning it seems we are being made to look very stupid and that I do not like.

Anyway, my view is my view....I'm not forcing it on anyone but I would watch West Ham and support them on Hackney marshes (if it was still there) playing in pink with no logo, no bar and no toilets if I had to....I would support the team no matter what and all the rest is just a load of bollocks to me.
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Towie
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Towie » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:48 pm

Romford wrote:I'd like a pound note for every time ive said this over the past 48 hours...are you prepared to go down maybe even do a Sunderland to get rid of these muppets running our club ??

In my eyes....i would take it happily.

I know there is no guarentee that they will get on their toes whatever league we are in...but while they are in charge they will never ever put enough in for us to be able to even compete in this league.

I would also have no problems getting rid of a few of the new fans we have attracted.


If you could guarantee they sell up, then I would take it.
As you can’t then no, I would rather be in the top league than stuttering around the lower leagues with these lot in charge.

Not sure why you have a problem with new fans, surely it is better to try and grow the fan base to increase revenue?
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houseclaret
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby houseclaret » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:57 pm

Whiskyman wrote:I think it's quite likely to happen but to answer your question , no, I wouldn't be happy about it.

Reason being quite simply that as I've just posted in a reply to Pale and serious new owner would realise that, as the 4th team in London, a massive investment would be needed just to push us up to a level where we can compete with, never mind beat, the other 3. And investors buy clubs to make money. London looks to have it's quota of so called top clubs at the moment.

Serious couple of questions here from a Claret (Burnley). First off what is all this business about wanting to compete with the top 6? I know it would be a nice dream as it would with us but the fact is you have never competed at the top level really have you? You are a London club with decent support but historically you have never broke any pots trophy wise have you? And, unlike Burnley (twice) you have never been champions (3rd place I think is your best effort) so why do some of your fans (not all I admit) seem to think that West Ham have some right to be at or near the top?
Secondly why did some of your fans decide to completely ruin the day for their own fans by putting your own players off in a game that, to be fair, you were doing quite well in until we scored? After our first goal and the subsequent pitch invasion your players packed in completely. A game that took us an hour to get into suddenly became a cake walk. Admittedly the introduction of Wood at half time changed us massively but even at 0-1 you could have still been in the game.
What is it that some of your fans actually want? You hate the stadium, I get that, but your old ground is gone so there is no going back. You want rid of the owners, why? What is it they have done wrong? Have they not, in the eyes of fans, spent enough money? To do what with? Try to achieve a level of success you have never really known? West Ham are, and I'm not being insulting here, just a fairly ordinary club with decent support who have spent most of their history under-achieving, so why suddenly do some fans think you are a sleeping giant?
I support a club who variously have over-achieved and been completely in the doldrums (I was at the Orient game in the 80's when we nearly went out of the league) so I have known the ups and downs of football in a major way. I, like every other Burnley fan, am enjoying the ride at the moment but we are realistic enough to know that it probably won't last, not in the long term anyway, and unless someone comes along with more money than sense we will never compete with the big six.
Come on guys, put yourselves into perspective and start being realistic, look at the positives, you are not even in a relegation place yet and Moyes is a great manager, the only thing that will send you down will be idiots like Saturday destroying the players confidence and making them fear for their safety. It was so visible on Saturday that that was the case.
Please note that I have asked questions and made observations, my post has not been meant in any way to insult your club or your fans.
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Dwayne Pipes
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Dwayne Pipes » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:14 pm

Thanks for your sentiments but the only things that will take us down is the inept manager and this shower of shit we begrudgingly call a team.
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Whiskyman
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Whiskyman » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:55 pm

houseclaret wrote:
Whiskyman wrote:I think it's quite likely to happen but to answer your question , no, I wouldn't be happy about it.

Reason being quite simply that as I've just posted in a reply to Pale and serious new owner would realise that, as the 4th team in London, a massive investment would be needed just to push us up to a level where we can compete with, never mind beat, the other 3. And investors buy clubs to make money. London looks to have it's quota of so called top clubs at the moment.


Serious couple of questions here from a Claret (Burnley). First off what is all this business about wanting to compete with the top 6? I know it would be a nice dream as it would with us but the fact is you have never competed at the top level really have you? You are a London club with decent support but historically you have never broke any pots trophy wise have you? And, unlike Burnley (twice) you have never been champions (3rd place I think is your best effort) so why do some of your fans (not all I admit) seem to think that West Ham have some right to be at or near the top?


Some good points. I can obviously only answer from my own point of view but here goes.

Regarding competing with the top 6. Football is a competitive sport and the object surely has to be to aim for the highest point. Putting that into a football perspective that means, or should do imo, for a PL club to be competing for a place in European competition. Imo if teams are not going to try to raise their own personal bar then what the hell are we doing? In our personal lives most of us try to do the best for ourselves and our families that our abilities allow. I don't think it should be any different for a sporting institution. A Championship side should be striving for promotion to the PL and so on.

You are right that 3rd place is our highest ever position. Unlike today we had a very good team then but in true West Ham fashion we failed to build on that successful season wwhich, in my book, was unforgiveable. I certainly don't think West Ham, or for that matter any club, has a right to be in the top 6. But I damn well expect to see teams (not just mine) trying to earn the right to be there. As Burnley are doing this season. And proving that, whilst spending money on players is one part of the equation a good team ethic, hard work, and sensible boardroom decisions, such as not binning Dyche after your last relegation, also come into play.

houseclaret wrote:Secondly why did some of your fans decide to completely ruin the day for their own fans by putting your own players off in a game that, to be fair, you were doing quite well in until we scored? After our first goal and the subsequent pitch invasion your players packed in completely. A game that took us an hour to get into suddenly became a cake walk. Admittedly the introduction of Wood at half time changed us massively but even at 0-1 you could have still been in the game.


I completely agree. The correct method of protest would have been in front of the directors box at the end of the game or outside the ground afterwards. The fools who ran onto the pitch achieved absolutely nothing and effectively killed what little chance there was of a revival. Furthermore whilst there is a degree of sympathy with the fan protest from the mainstream press, gathering pace until Saturday, the actions of a few idiots can only water down that support imo.

houseclaret wrote:What is it that some of your fans actually want? You hate the stadium, I get that, but your old ground is gone so there is no going back. You want rid of the owners, why? What is it they have done wrong? Have they not, in the eyes of fans, spent enough money? To do what with? Try to achieve a level of success you have never really known? West Ham are, and I'm not being insulting here, just a fairly ordinary club with decent support who have spent most of their history under-achieving, so why suddenly do some fans think you are a sleeping giant?


There isn't enough space here for me to list the things our ownership have done wrong. Suffice to say the club has been totally mismanaged and run in a way more befitting a Sunday League pub team than a multi million pound business. And I'm not talking about financial investment either. Let's just say if you're a member of a club, like the PL, it's important to be liked by the majority of the other 19 members. I understand our main shareholder, Sullivan, is not just disliked, but actually despised, by the majority of the other members of that club.

As for the stadium there are a great many fans who felt we needed to move from Upton Park because we wanted to increase the capacity. I don't know if you ever went to Upton Park but the place was an absolute nightmare to get in and out of when there were 35,000 there, imagine the chaos if there were 20,000 or so more. The main issue most people have is the fact that one of the owners many mistakes was making promises about how they would deal with certain concerns about the stadium and then not implementing those plans.


houseclaret wrote:I support a club who variously have over-achieved and been completely in the doldrums (I was at the Orient game in the 80's when we nearly went out of the league) so I have known the ups and downs of football in a major way. I, like every other Burnley fan, am enjoying the ride at the moment but we are realistic enough to know that it probably won't last, not in the long term anyway, and unless someone comes along with more money than sense we will never compete with the big six.
Come on guys, put yourselves into perspective and start being realistic, look at the positives, you are not even in a relegation place yet and Moyes is a great manager, the only thing that will send you down will be idiots like Saturday destroying the players confidence and making them fear for their safety. It was so visible on Saturday that that was the case.
Please note that I have asked questions and made observations, my post has not been meant in any way to insult your club or your fans.


Fair comments which basically sum up what the purpose of these forums should be. Like I say other people will have different views to mine. Like all opinions mine are just that. Not right, not wrong, just opinions.
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby palerider » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:19 pm

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Clayton
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Re: Its got to get worse...Saturday was only the start

Postby Clayton » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:54 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
houseclaret wrote:
Serious couple of questions here from a Claret (Burnley). First off what is all this business about wanting to compete with the top 6? I know it would be a nice dream as it would with us but the fact is you have never competed at the top level really have you? You are a London club with decent support but historically you have never broke any pots trophy wise have you? And, unlike Burnley (twice) you have never been champions (3rd place I think is your best effort) so why do some of your fans (not all I admit) seem to think that West Ham have some right to be at or near the top?


Some good points. I can obviously only answer from my own point of view but here goes.

Regarding competing with the top 6. Football is a competitive sport and the object surely has to be to aim for the highest point. Putting that into a football perspective that means, or should do imo, for a PL club to be competing for a place in European competition. Imo if teams are not going to try to raise their own personal bar then what the hell are we doing? In our personal lives most of us try to do the best for ourselves and our families that our abilities allow. I don't think it should be any different for a sporting institution. A Championship side should be striving for promotion to the PL and so on.

You are right that 3rd place is our highest ever position. Unlike today we had a very good team then but in true West Ham fashion we failed to build on that successful season wwhich, in my book, was unforgiveable. I certainly don't think West Ham, or for that matter any club, has a right to be in the top 6. But I damn well expect to see teams (not just mine) trying to earn the right to be there. As Burnley are doing this season. And proving that, whilst spending money on players is one part of the equation a good team ethic, hard work, and sensible boardroom decisions, such as not binning Dyche after your last relegation, also come into play.

houseclaret wrote:Secondly why did some of your fans decide to completely ruin the day for their own fans by putting your own players off in a game that, to be fair, you were doing quite well in until we scored? After our first goal and the subsequent pitch invasion your players packed in completely. A game that took us an hour to get into suddenly became a cake walk. Admittedly the introduction of Wood at half time changed us massively but even at 0-1 you could have still been in the game.


I completely agree. The correct method of protest would have been in front of the directors box at the end of the game or outside the ground afterwards. The fools who ran onto the pitch achieved absolutely nothing and effectively killed what little chance there was of a revival. Furthermore whilst there is a degree of sympathy with the fan protest from the mainstream press, gathering pace until Saturday, the actions of a few idiots can only water down that support imo.

houseclaret wrote:What is it that some of your fans actually want? You hate the stadium, I get that, but your old ground is gone so there is no going back. You want rid of the owners, why? What is it they have done wrong? Have they not, in the eyes of fans, spent enough money? To do what with? Try to achieve a level of success you have never really known? West Ham are, and I'm not being insulting here, just a fairly ordinary club with decent support who have spent most of their history under-achieving, so why suddenly do some fans think you are a sleeping giant?


There isn't enough space here for me to list the things our ownership have done wrong. Suffice to say the club has been totally mismanaged and run in a way more befitting a Sunday League pub team than a multi million pound business. And I'm not talking about financial investment either. Let's just say if you're a member of a club, like the PL, it's important to be liked by the majority of the other 19 members. I understand our main shareholder, Sullivan, is not just disliked, but actually despised, by the majority of the other members of that club.

As for the stadium there are a great many fans who felt we needed to move from Upton Park because we wanted to increase the capacity. I don't know if you ever went to Upton Park but the place was an absolute nightmare to get in and out of when there were 35,000 there, imagine the chaos if there were 20,000 or so more. The main issue most people have is the fact that one of the owners many mistakes was making promises about how they would deal with certain concerns about the stadium and then not implementing those plans.


houseclaret wrote:I support a club who variously have over-achieved and been completely in the doldrums (I was at the Orient game in the 80's when we nearly went out of the league) so I have known the ups and downs of football in a major way. I, like every other Burnley fan, am enjoying the ride at the moment but we are realistic enough to know that it probably won't last, not in the long term anyway, and unless someone comes along with more money than sense we will never compete with the big six.
Come on guys, put yourselves into perspective and start being realistic, look at the positives, you are not even in a relegation place yet and Moyes is a great manager, the only thing that will send you down will be idiots like Saturday destroying the players confidence and making them fear for their safety. It was so visible on Saturday that that was the case.
Please note that I have asked questions and made observations, my post has not been meant in any way to insult your club or your fans.


Fair comments which basically sum up what the purpose of these forums should be. Like I say other people will have different views to mine. Like all opinions mine are just that. Not right, not wrong, just opinions.


goodpost:)
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