F1, 2019

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Whiskyman
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Whiskyman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:08 pm

I'm not a great F1 fan but do enjoy watching the highlights. Just wondering which is most important, the car or the driver. Obviously they're both major factors but a crap driver wouldn't win in Hamilton's Merc any more than Hamilton would win in a dodgy motor.

Over to the experts for the answer.
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mkhammer
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by mkhammer » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:09 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:08 pm
I'm not a great F1 fan but do enjoy watching the highlights. Just wondering which is most important, the car or the driver. Obviously they're both major factors but a crap driver wouldn't win in Hamilton's Merc any more than Hamilton would win in a dodgy motor.

Over to the experts for the answer.
Prob go something like 70% car 30% Driver...
Think maybe most of the drivers could win a race in a Mercedes...but nowhere near as many as Lewis,
Who for me is half a second quicker in a like for like car than anyone else...except maybe Leclerc
and Vestappen.

But Lewis couldn't win in anything outside of a Merc/Ferrari/Redbull,but would pick up
more points than the others do.

So you pretty much got it spot on..

But Grandad will fill you in far better than me...he lives and breathes it..... :lol:
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Gandalf
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Gandalf » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:45 am

What you also need to consider when discussing the ‘best car’ is why is it the best car?

When Hamilton went to Mercedes many thought he was mad. Leaving a team like McLaren with its stellar history, and going to Mercedes that up until that point had only won a single race in the hands of Rosberg. Michael Schumacher couldn’t even get that car on the podium after three years of trying.

The answer of course is the development of the car. And to develop a car takes team-work, and the driver is a crucial part of that team.

Those that love to criticize Hamilton for only winning because he has the best car would do well to remember that.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:52 am

The car/driver thing is a very old chestnut.
I'd say with a bit of luck and a mountain of skill a great driver has the potential to win a race in anything. Senna in a Toleman almost winning at Monte Carlo in the wet being a case in point.
Senna won plenty of races in a post glory days Lotus.
He won in a McLaren when it was light years off the Williams. Vettel won in a Toro Rosso, Hamilton in sub par Mercs and McLarens,
Winning a Championship in car that isn't in the top 2 teams on the grid is nigh on impossible though. Alonso almost managed it at Ferrari, when it was arguably only the third quickest car.

All things considered talent levels get a bit muddied by car performance. The only real measure comes in performance vs team mate. Senna saw Prost off at McLaren and again at Williams. Hamilton did the same to Alonso and Rosberg -- who were, in my opinion, both quicker drivers than Vettel.
Schumacher by contrast never really had a team mate who was ever anything more than a wingman in his prime at Ferrari and Benneton.
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Gandalf » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:22 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:52 am
The car/driver thing is a very old chestnut.
I'd say with a bit of luck and a mountain of skill a great driver has the potential to win a race in anything. Senna in a Toleman almost winning at Monte Carlo in the wet being a case in point.
Senna won plenty of races in a post glory days Lotus.
He won in a McLaren when it was light years off the Williams. Vettel won in a Toro Rosso, Hamilton in sub par Mercs and McLarens,
Winning a Championship in car that isn't in the top 2 teams on the grid is nigh on impossible though. Alonso almost managed it at Ferrari, when it was arguably only the third quickest car.

All things considered talent levels get a bit muddied by car performance. The only real measure comes in performance vs team mate. Senna saw Prost off at McLaren and again at Williams. Hamilton did the same to Alonso and Rosberg -- who were, in my opinion, both quicker drivers than Vettel.
Schumacher by contrast never really had a team mate who was ever anything more than a wingman in his prime at Ferrari and Benneton.
Two minor points:
Senna and Prost were never teammates at Williams. And Hamilton didn't exactly 'see off' Alonso at McLaren. They finished the season on the same points. Although seeing as Alonso was current and two-time world champion and Hamilton was a rookie you could certainly argue it was a moral victory for Lewis.

As for the rest of it, I certainly agree. Especially your comments about Schumacher. To my mind he will never be regarded as an all-time-great. Certainly not up there with Hamilton, Senna etc...
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Noni
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Noni » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:10 am

mkhammer wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:09 pm
Whiskyman wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:08 pm
I'm not a great F1 fan but do enjoy watching the highlights. Just wondering which is most important, the car or the driver. Obviously they're both major factors but a crap driver wouldn't win in Hamilton's Merc any more than Hamilton would win in a dodgy motor.

Over to the experts for the answer.

But Grandad will fill you in far better than me...he lives and breathes it..... :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Noni
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Noni » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:20 am

Gandalf wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:45 am
What you also need to consider when discussing the ‘best car’ is why is it the best car?

When Hamilton went to Mercedes many thought he was mad. Leaving a team like McLaren with its stellar history, and going to Mercedes that up until that point had only won a single race in the hands of Rosberg. Michael Schumacher couldn’t even get that car on the podium after three years of trying.

The answer of course is the development of the car. And to develop a car takes team-work, and the driver is a crucial part of that team.

Those that love to criticize Hamilton for only winning because he has the best car would do well to remember that.
Think of of Schumacher days at Ferrari, where the team was built around him and his team mate. Both Irvine, Rubens Barrichello and Massa had to give way to Schumacher. Hamilton had to fight with Rosberg and now Bottas to win the championship!!!
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Neville Bartos
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Neville Bartos » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:45 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:22 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:52 am
The car/driver thing is a very old chestnut.
I'd say with a bit of luck and a mountain of skill a great driver has the potential to win a race in anything. Senna in a Toleman almost winning at Monte Carlo in the wet being a case in point.
Senna won plenty of races in a post glory days Lotus.
He won in a McLaren when it was light years off the Williams. Vettel won in a Toro Rosso, Hamilton in sub par Mercs and McLarens,
Winning a Championship in car that isn't in the top 2 teams on the grid is nigh on impossible though. Alonso almost managed it at Ferrari, when it was arguably only the third quickest car.

All things considered talent levels get a bit muddied by car performance. The only real measure comes in performance vs team mate. Senna saw Prost off at McLaren and again at Williams. Hamilton did the same to Alonso and Rosberg -- who were, in my opinion, both quicker drivers than Vettel.
Schumacher by contrast never really had a team mate who was ever anything more than a wingman in his prime at Ferrari and Benneton.
Two minor points:
Senna and Prost were never teammates at Williams. And Hamilton didn't exactly 'see off' Alonso at McLaren. They finished the season on the same points. Although seeing as Alonso was current and two-time world champion and Hamilton was a rookie you could certainly argue it was a moral victory for Lewis.

As for the rest of it, I certainly agree. Especially your comments about Schumacher. To my mind he will never be regarded as an all-time-great. Certainly not up there with Hamilton, Senna etc...
I probably should've been clearer than just 'saw off', mate.
At Williams Prost made it clear he'd only drive for them if Senna wasn't signed. It might have even been in his contract. So, when Frank Williams signed the Brazilian, Prost quit.
A similar sort of thing occurred with Alonso at McLaren. He signed as number 1, but when Ron Dennis refused to put Hamilton in his place, he was out the door the next season.

Some drivers seem to thrive under that pressure and intensity of a close rivalry in the team, whereas others seem to want a clear hierarchy.
Prost, Alonso and Schumacher all seemed to want a tailgunner. Someone they could dominate, who was a tool for them to use.
I think Senna and Hamilton were and are just pure racers. Less interested in the politics of the team than just going fast.
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Gandalf
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by Gandalf » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:46 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:45 pm
Gandalf wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:22 am


Two minor points:
Senna and Prost were never teammates at Williams. And Hamilton didn't exactly 'see off' Alonso at McLaren. They finished the season on the same points. Although seeing as Alonso was current and two-time world champion and Hamilton was a rookie you could certainly argue it was a moral victory for Lewis.

As for the rest of it, I certainly agree. Especially your comments about Schumacher. To my mind he will never be regarded as an all-time-great. Certainly not up there with Hamilton, Senna etc...

Prost, Alonso and Schumacher all seemed to want a tailgunner. Someone they could dominate, who was a tool for them to use.
I think Senna and Hamilton were and are just pure racers. Less interested in the politics of the team than just going fast.
Spot on!!!
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Re: F1, 2019

Post by grandad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Jim.clarke would of kicked there arses FACT
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