Ashes..

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ToneLoc
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Re: Ashes..

Post by ToneLoc » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:54 pm

Smith once again is the key.
FFS if nothing else surely the law of averages says we can get the cunt out before he makes another century?
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Re: Ashes..

Post by ToneLoc » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:57 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:01 am
palerider wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:36 am


After we lose sometime tomorrow and the Aussies retain the Ashes some serious thinking needs to happen.

It's not just a world cup hangover. We lost in the Windies during the winter and they can't beat an egg. It's a symptom of one day cricket especially 20/20. And they're now bringing in an even shorter format !

I get that it's an entertainment business and that not all tests are as gripping as that final day at Headingly. But if you're not picking the right men for the job, why bother at all ?

There are a few batsmen who can transition between formats. Root and Stokes can, probably Bairstow at a pinch but the rest, forget it. Denly is a good county pro, no more. Buttler and Roy lack the technique. Granted it was nearly dark when he was bowled last night but it was a one-day waft, attempted because he'd just hit a boundary. He has the mindset that once he's in, or thinks he is, it's time to make hay. Imo he'll never be a test player whether he bats at 1 or 4. The red ball moves around much more and much longer than the white one.

A new test coach is a must. One who specialises in just that format and I also think the bowling coach, Silverwood, needs to look at the workload of Archer who bowled at not more than 83mph in the Aussie innings.

Problem is, Rory Burns apart, specialist test batsmen are rare. Cook was, but who apart from those two, aren't also playing 20 over cricket ? I watched Moeen Ali hit 11 sixes in the 20/20 QF last night. Against Oz it looked like he was batting with a stick of celery. Kids in the academies don't think it's sexy enough. Emphasis for the future must identify those that have the correct technique and award well paid contracts to concentrate on just that without the confusion of the white ball stuff.

Otherwise, test cricket will sadly become a quaint side-note.
Nicely summed up, mate.
What I don't understand, technique aside, is why after innumerable failures players just can't resist hitting balls that can be left.
Test cricket is a five day game. Stokes showed perfectly how batting in a way that suits the situation can be hugely effective.
That said it's easy to pick on Jason Roy, he is a brilliant Twenty20 and ODI batsman, no doubt. Maybe even our best limited overs batter. But it's obvious he can't adapt to test cricket. So given he can't adapt batting at 2, what genius thought playing him at 4 would work?

As much as watching these guys fail and fail and fail is frustrating, they're not picking themselves.
For me England's selection policy has always lagged behind Australia's in terms of continuity, and especially sticking with younger talent.

Just take the opener spots. Hales has had 11 tests and pretty much consistently failed. Roy's onto his 4th test and has been unarguably worse than Hales. Haseeb Hameed at 19, played 3 away tests averaging over 40 and has never been seen again.
Now at 22 his county form is straight up ordinary, but given that promising start it just seems an utter waste, or perhaps a missed opportunity. I can't help feeling if he'd been Australian he'd have been coached and groomed inside the international set-up, rather than left to rot on the County circuit.

I've seen this before with England, young talented players given 2 or 3 tests before being shunted off back to county cricket. And yet more established failures seem to lead a charmed life. Why does a Mark Lathwell get 2 tests and a Graeme Hick 65?

My bugbear for a while now has been Buttler. A guy who is supposedly good enough to bat as a specialist middle order batsman, yet has failed consistently. As shit as Moeen Ali has been he should be questioning why he got dropped and Buttler didn't. He has 5 test hundreds Buttler has 1, and he usually bat's at 7 or 8.

I don't rate Bayliss or Root as coach and captain in the longer format.
Maybe the test and limited overs coaching should be separated again?
I quite liked the idea of Jason Gillespie when he was linked with the job a couple of years ago. Young, innovative, an outsider.

I'm also of the opinion that giving the captaincy to your best player has been a curse for England. Vaughan averaged 50 before the captaincy 40 after. Flintoff, well the less said about his captaincy the better. Pietersen, same as Flintoff.
Cook was never a great captain, but it still managed to drop his average from 50 to 45. And for me Root is a poor captain and he's gone from looking as good as Smith with the bat to once again dropping below that world class 50 average.
Our best captain in recent times was Strauss, a solid player comfortably overshadowed by Cook and Pietersen, and all parties were probably the better for it. I wonder if Bairstow would make a decent skipper?

Do pardon the rambling post, but I've been sat in a car park for the last 40 minutes with norther better to do.
Bit harsh to say Roy can’t adapt to test cricket Nev.
He only debuted against Ireland right before the Ashes.
I blame the selectors, not Roy. His time may well yet come.
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Re: Ashes..

Post by Neville Bartos » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:20 pm

ToneLoc wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:57 pm
Neville Bartos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:01 am


Nicely summed up, mate.
What I don't understand, technique aside, is why after innumerable failures players just can't resist hitting balls that can be left.
Test cricket is a five day game. Stokes showed perfectly how batting in a way that suits the situation can be hugely effective.
That said it's easy to pick on Jason Roy, he is a brilliant Twenty20 and ODI batsman, no doubt. Maybe even our best limited overs batter. But it's obvious he can't adapt to test cricket. So given he can't adapt batting at 2, what genius thought playing him at 4 would work?

As much as watching these guys fail and fail and fail is frustrating, they're not picking themselves.
For me England's selection policy has always lagged behind Australia's in terms of continuity, and especially sticking with younger talent.

Just take the opener spots. Hales has had 11 tests and pretty much consistently failed. Roy's onto his 4th test and has been unarguably worse than Hales. Haseeb Hameed at 19, played 3 away tests averaging over 40 and has never been seen again.
Now at 22 his county form is straight up ordinary, but given that promising start it just seems an utter waste, or perhaps a missed opportunity. I can't help feeling if he'd been Australian he'd have been coached and groomed inside the international set-up, rather than left to rot on the County circuit.

I've seen this before with England, young talented players given 2 or 3 tests before being shunted off back to county cricket. And yet more established failures seem to lead a charmed life. Why does a Mark Lathwell get 2 tests and a Graeme Hick 65?

My bugbear for a while now has been Buttler. A guy who is supposedly good enough to bat as a specialist middle order batsman, yet has failed consistently. As shit as Moeen Ali has been he should be questioning why he got dropped and Buttler didn't. He has 5 test hundreds Buttler has 1, and he usually bat's at 7 or 8.

I don't rate Bayliss or Root as coach and captain in the longer format.
Maybe the test and limited overs coaching should be separated again?
I quite liked the idea of Jason Gillespie when he was linked with the job a couple of years ago. Young, innovative, an outsider.

I'm also of the opinion that giving the captaincy to your best player has been a curse for England. Vaughan averaged 50 before the captaincy 40 after. Flintoff, well the less said about his captaincy the better. Pietersen, same as Flintoff.
Cook was never a great captain, but it still managed to drop his average from 50 to 45. And for me Root is a poor captain and he's gone from looking as good as Smith with the bat to once again dropping below that world class 50 average.
Our best captain in recent times was Strauss, a solid player comfortably overshadowed by Cook and Pietersen, and all parties were probably the better for it. I wonder if Bairstow would make a decent skipper?

Do pardon the rambling post, but I've been sat in a car park for the last 40 minutes with norther better to do.
Bit harsh to say Roy can’t adapt to test cricket Nev.
He only debuted against Ireland right before the Ashes.
I blame the selectors, not Roy. His time may well yet come.
Mate, there's no hint of what it takes to open in the long form of the game. Was it Boycott who said if the balls not hitting the stumps it shouldn't be hitting the bat?
He just can't stop trying to play his shots and opening is all about restraint, shot selection and patience.
If he was 22 or 23 I might agree that the compulsive shot making might be coached out of him, but he's 29.
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Re: Ashes..

Post by mkhammer » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:05 pm

Oh FFS...Game over....even I've given up now..... :lol:
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Re: Ashes..

Post by Neville Bartos » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:15 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:05 pm
Oh FFS...Game over....even I've given up now..... :lol:
Yeah, two miracles in a row is a bit much to hope for.
Golden duck for Root, a real skippers innings. :D
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Re: Ashes..

Post by Newmarket » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:00 pm

Nothing to lose now so play the Lions at the Oval with Stokes captaining.
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Re: Ashes..

Post by palerider » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:15 pm
mkhammer wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:05 pm
Oh FFS...Game over....even I've given up now..... :lol:
Yeah, two miracles in a row is a bit much to hope for.
Golden duck for Root, a real skippers innings. :D
Tbf, a 90mph ball pitching middle hitting off.

It would have got Smith out.

Cummins is no.1 in the world. That's why.
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Re: Ashes..

Post by mkhammer » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:43 am

palerider wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:15 pm


Yeah, two miracles in a row is a bit much to hope for.
Golden duck for Root, a real skippers innings. :D
Tbf, a 90mph ball pitching middle hitting off.

It would have got Smith out.

Cummins is no.1 in the world. That's why.
Him and Smith the difference...Even then just No Smith,and as poor as we've been at times,we would
have got the Ashes back..
Cummins,Hazlewood...def seem to be able to dig it in more, more aggressive,consistently..
and with us throwing our bats round like a conductors baton at times......
Archer can..but had a poor 1st innings...actual thought he was protecting a pull or strain..
No back up bowling second innings....Broad and Archer were firing,then all fizzled out at change,
thought Woakes was unlucky not to keep his place tbh,Overton brought in cos more aggressive,
haven't really seen it....but I watch prob hour on hour off so can miss stuff..
Need to get thru to lunch,only losing 1,to have any F.in hope....Roy owes us a knock...
Unlike me giving up...but just cant see it..
Cant even be arsed with the 9/2 for a draw... :lol:
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Re: Ashes..

Post by palerider » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:47 am

mkhammer wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:43 am
palerider wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am


Tbf, a 90mph ball pitching middle hitting off.

It would have got Smith out.

Cummins is no.1 in the world. That's why.
Him and Smith the difference...Even then just No Smith,and as poor as we've been at times,we would
have got the Ashes back..
Cummins,Hazlewood...def seem to be able to dig it in more, more aggressive,consistently..
and with us throwing our bats round like a conductors baton at times......
Archer can..but had a poor 1st innings...actual thought he was protecting a pull or strain..
No back up bowling second innings....Broad and Archer were firing,then all fizzled out at change,
thought Woakes was unlucky not to keep his place tbh,Overton brought in cos more aggressive,
haven't really seen it....but I watch prob hour on hour off so can miss stuff..
Need to get thru to lunch,only losing 1,to have any F.in hope....Roy owes us a knock...
Unlike me giving up...but just cant see it..
Cant even be arsed with the 9/2 for a draw... :lol:
I think Archer was suffering because of the conditions. Cold and in a gale. Much better 2nd innings. Couldn't see the point of Overton. Picked as a 'work horse' but only bowled one over more than Archer in the first. And at 80/82 mph isn't getting Smith out.

Selectors have had a shocker all series.
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Re: Ashes..

Post by Neville Bartos » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:24 am

palerider wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:15 pm


Yeah, two miracles in a row is a bit much to hope for.
Golden duck for Root, a real skippers innings. :D
Tbf, a 90mph ball pitching middle hitting off.

It would have got Smith out.

Cummins is no.1 in the world. That's why.
It was a good ball, I just thought it summed up the failure of Roots captaincy. England have relied on individual brilliance to dig them out of a series long awful team performance.
That awfulness begins and ends with the captain and coach.
The Aussies have been the same, unfortunately for us they've got a couple more good players than we have. This is taking the shine off that world Cup win. I might be in the minority but for me it's Ashes >>> World Cup.
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