No delta wings ?

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Dwayne Pipes
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Dwayne Pipes » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:09 pm

Jezzas just returned the two Sopwith Camels he had on hire for our Air defences if elected.
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Gandalf
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Gandalf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:21 am

palerider wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:16 pm
I went to the Concorde museum thingy in Brizzle and inside the one there. Surprised how cramped it was.

Can't have been comfortable. Good job it got to New York in 55 minutes from Heathrow.
55 minutes? :lol:

It may have been quick but it wasn't that quick!
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Gandalf
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Gandalf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:39 am

Oziron wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:17 pm
Gandalf wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:50 pm


In terms of military aircraft, there is. The B2 stealth bomber is a delta wing.
And there are delta wing fighter aircraft too: Typhoon (Eurofighter), Dassault Rafale, Saab Gripen...


Regarding commercial aircraft there are numerous limiting factors.

Airports:
All modern airports are designed to accommodate the existing format of aircraft. And therefore all new commercial aircraft are designed to be compatible with existing airports. It's a tried and tested formula. It works well although it does limit progress.
Concorde worked. But if you were to build a supersonic aircraft now it wouldn't look like Concorde. Technology has moved on greatly since then. But whatever you do build still has to be compatible with existing airports.


Adaptability in design:
All modern aircraft are built in different versions over the span of their lifetime. This is for the differing needs of various airline companies. This can be, for example, different seating arrangements or it can also be different length fuselages based on passenger/cargo requirement and fuel/flight range requirement. And in all cases a simple tube with wings stuck on the side is the easiest format to adapt.
With Concorde for example you couldn't just extend the fuselage due to the wing design (amongst other things).


Return on investment:
Whatever you build for the commercial sector is always about maximizing profits. The cost of designing and building a supersonic aircraft would be immense. So with that in mind you would need to be able to provide a service that is currently not available and that enough people need. With Concorde you could get from London to New York in less than half the time of any other commercial aircraft - but that was about it. Flights to, say, Dubai wouldn't be much quicker because flying supersonic over land is forbidden.


But, as I mentioned earlier, technology is always moving forward. Go and check out the NASA's X-59 QueSST. It's a supersonic research aircraft that will produce no sonic boom. If that technology works as planned then eventually we will get another supersonic airliner in the skies.
The other overriding issue with Concorde was the massive amount of fuel it burned per passenger. No longer economically viable cos of high cost of fuel.
It actually never was economically viable. Every flight lost money. But because British Airway bought all their Concorde's for just £1 they didn't have any initial outlay to recoup.
And when you consider all the money that gets pumped into advertising by large companies, think about what happens when Concorde flies overhead. Everyone stops what they are doing and looks up. No matter how may times you've seen it before you still look up.
So Concorde was an excellent marketing tool, and therefore worth keeping in the air.
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Gandalf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:46 am

mkhammer wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:46 pm
Concorde,beautiful thing...like you guys have said really surprisingly small...
Saw its final landing at heathrow...amazing..

Wasn't Concordeski first to fly tho...that might have been first commercial flight ,not sure.
Remembered they both had crashes..
Right the first time. Concordski was in the air a few months earlier.

You say both crashed, but there wasn't just two of them. They had a whole fleet of them.
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mkhammer
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by mkhammer » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:36 am

Gandalf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:46 am
mkhammer wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:46 pm
Concorde,beautiful thing...like you guys have said really surprisingly small...
Saw its final landing at heathrow...amazing..

Wasn't Concordeski first to fly tho...that might have been first commercial flight ,not sure.
Remembered they both had crashes..
Right the first time. Concordski was in the air a few months earlier.

You say both crashed, but there wasn't just two of them. They had a whole fleet of them.
Yeah of course...
Both crashes were in Paris as well....Air show one time(Concordeski) and a take off,hit a hotel
I think a commercial flight,hit some debris on a runway punctured a fuel line,so plane wasn't at fault.
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Gandalf
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Gandalf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:18 am

mkhammer wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:36 am
Gandalf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:46 am


Right the first time. Concordski was in the air a few months earlier.

You say both crashed, but there wasn't just two of them. They had a whole fleet of them.
Yeah of course...
Both crashes were in Paris as well....Air show one time(Concordeski) and a take off,hit a hotel
I think a commercial flight,hit some debris on a runway punctured a fuel line,so plane wasn't at fault.
Aah, that's what you mean by 'both'.

Concordski actually crashes twice. The famous one at the Paris Airshow, and then again a few years later.
It was the second crash that brought a close to the Soviets project.
That's what I thought you meant by 'both'.

Regarding the Concorde crash, as you say, no fault of the plane itself. It had an almost impeccable record up until that point - apart from a couple of times when it lost part if its rudder, although still landed safely each time.

Understandably the fleet was grounded whilst the Paris investigations took place. But once the downturn in air travel took place after 9/11 it didn't make sense to bring it back.
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by BillyDWhizz » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:36 pm

Gandalf pretty much nailed it with his reply, but I'll add my tuppence-worth anyway, coz I'm like that...

Basically, conventional wings allow the use of high lift devices such as Fowler flaps which allows them to fly with about half the surface area of a delta wing which in turn translates to lower drag and induced drag, making modern conventional wings far superior for efficient flight at high subsonic speed.

Supersonic flight was and for the most part and still is very tough on fuel consumption and is not particularly Polar bear friendly, which is obviously a big no no for the Airlines and is why SST development all but stalled for so long after the Concorde project.

More recently, there have been a few concepts thrown around for the second generation supersonic transport but that's pretty much all it's been, just concepts - but for the OP, I believe they were all indeed, Delta wings.

That said, I don't think we'll see another supersonic airliner per se, as engine technology advances, the next big step will be Hypersonic aircraft. Both EADS (airbus) and Boeing are currently actively researching mach 5+ aircraft and a number of engine manufacturers are messing about with such things as Precooled jet engines, ramjets, turboramjets, scramjets and the like. I think we're far more likely to see a Hypersonic airliner in the next decade than we are a "bog standard" supersonic one. London to Sydney in 6 hours anyone? And yes. It'll be a Delta wing!
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Gandalf
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Gandalf » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:08 pm

Here you go Noni. Maybe you'd like your name on the wing of that plane you've got as your profile pic.

https://www.vulcantotheskystore.co.uk/n ... agUXx4Dkuk
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by BCHammer » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:43 pm

Boom aircraft are trying to make new supersonic passenger aircraft. Whether they will ever enter production and service is doubtful, but they are basically delta wings.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airp ... SKBN1EG0GI

Lockheed Martin released some pretty pictures recently too (personally I think thats it will ever be)

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/supe ... index.html

The problem is today efficiency is key, now with Greta sailing round the world, airlines are also beginning to feel obligated about the environmental optics too. Don't get me started on carbon neutral... The new wings on aircraft like the 787 and A350 contribute a huge percentage to the efficiency of these modern mass people movers (along with composite materials and engine tech). The 747 and 727 were fast airliners which could manage 600+ mph, the sweet spot seems to be around 575 mph and with the congested airspace and line ups for runways and gates at many airports, even little Vancouver at peak times, being able to go double the speed to end up in such congestion rather negates the purpose. If time really is money, the newest bizjets like the Global 6500 and Citation X are pretty close to supersonic. Interestingly, the proposed Aerion supersonic bizjet does not have delta wings either.

If youre into planes mate, DM and Ill send you the flickr link to my aircraft photos (I have some of Vulcan's at Duxford, Hendon & East Fortune).
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Dwayne Pipes
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Re: No delta wings ?

Post by Dwayne Pipes » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:43 pm

The Vulcan fuck me what a piece of kit that was.
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