London Bridge

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papawhisky
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Re: London Bridge

Postby papawhisky » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:39 pm

Brexit and Trump were not 'protest votes', they were simply votes. Just because the less liberal option won does not make it any different. They simply reflected a change in the views of the majority.

I do have one question for you neville...

We are hearing much recently about a watch list (supposedly 3000 people on it but the figure is irrelevant to the question). My personal opinion is that each and every person on that watch list should now be hauled in for thorough questioning, their homes and related premises searched and their phones and other devices checked for all correspondences and if that leads to added names on the watch list then they too be checked.

Do you think that would be appropriate or would it be violating their precious human rights?

P.S. I'm not assuming that you would, but please don't mention any outrage among the Muslim community at so many of their followers being questioned. I personally think that the majority of Muslims would welcome and understand such a move.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:03 pm

Pennywise wrote:
Rescue of what/whom? This is an internet message board. People post opinions, then other members post their responses. I am reacting to your assertion that those who had posted on this thread had "surrendered." You posted that, not as a reply to mk, or banjo, you posted it as a reply to all. I didn't agree, so I posted my reply....to you.

There is no "wading in," this is a public message board. This is how public message boards work.

Mate, I don't mind handing out a dig and I don't mind taking one, my point was your original post targeted everybody. Coming from the man who has fervently argued (and argued well) against blanketing all Muslims with the same label, I just found that to be more than a touch hypocritical.

My whole point so far has been aimed at you, but I don't think I've made too many "digs," in fact, I've tried to be as civil as possible.

I used to be branded the lefty loony round here, it was me who was dismissive of the arguments of those on the right hand side of the political spectrum. I've softened a lot since those days, mainly because what has been happening to the world over the last decade or so.

The way you choose to have communicate with those you disagree is everything You are clearly an intelligent, well read, educated dude. But if you, and those like you, continue to belittle and rubbish the opinions of those who disagree with you, especially those who, say, might not be as well read, or well educated as you....... the protest votes, such as Brexit, Trump etc, will continue to happen.

Goes for all sides of the political argument by the way, the discourse at all levels HAS to improve, otherwise we risk becoming much like America and it's poisonous political bullshit.



Whose defence were you coming to then? You seemed to have a bee in your bonnet about some offence I might have caused to someone.
Who exactly did I assert had surrendered? I QUALIFIED that comment. Which I pointed out in my previous response.
And how exactly was that 'a reply to all''? It was clearly a qualified statement. If you disagree with my conclusion, fine, but don't try and pretend I was just randomly saying 'everyone has surrendered'.
'Wading in' is a turn of phrase, mate, you're not meant to take it literally.

Perhaps if I hadn't qualified what I wrote it could be said to have 'targeted everyone', but I was very specific.
I'm not quite sure anything taken out of context is ever hypocritical.

I have an average IQ, I read no more than most, and I left school at 15 with no qualifications to work in factory to support my family -- and believe me academically I was C thru F in every subject, so that was no hardship. Don't make me out to be something I'm not. I write as well as I can, I give my honest opinion, and if I feel it's warranted maybe there's a little disdain -- certainly about a list, but I don't rubbish anyone's opinion I ARGUE THE POINT, and trust me mate, I'm in no position to belittle anyone.

Nothing will change. Deep down we all know that. Voting for billionaires, trusting tabloid newspapers and false promises isn't a protest against anything.
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Pennywise
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Pennywise » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:06 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Pennywise wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
You're trying to lecture me on empathy, is that it?
So, suggesting something utterly irrational that goes against all your principles is empathetic, is reasonable, is it?

In all seriousness do you think a terrorist killing someone is more horrific or deserving of something more than a drunk driver or a joyrider plowing into a bunch of children? Do you think the parents of the victims are anymore distraught or destroyed? Are they any less ripped apart?

You understand them? You understand how a man with a wife and two small children can commit mass murder and suicide? You think that man cares enough about his family to think twice? Remember, he has a wife and two small children.

How am I a do gooder exactly? Because I'm not irrational, or hateful, or posting lists of lies about Muslims?
I'm an atheist so of course I've read the Quran, I've read lots of religious texts.
Terrorists who go out and commit atrocities are brainwashed into believing everything you say they're not fighting for.
There is no agenda to have us all believe the same thing. Sunni Muslims kill Shia Muslims, Kurd Muslims kill Turkish Muslims and vice versa. They blow up each others Mosques, they murder each others children.
There's no grand scheme, no grand plan. It's petty little factions; ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, El Shabaab, desperately trying to carve out some horrific little corner of the world so they can lord it over a bunch of natives by cutting their heads off and stoning them to death.

Do they want to cut my head off. I'm an atheist so possibly. Am I more likely to get run down by a car. Yes, of course. Do I need to have an emotional angry response to motorists because of that? No.

Isn't everyone angry and frustrated at terrorism?
Can you ever remember a time without terrorism?
And is posting stuff on football forum so like minded people can like it really fighting back?
I actually knew someone who fought back, who did it properly, my cousin in fact, https://www.gov.uk/government/fatalitie ... fghanistan

Please don't credit me with calling you a bigot before the event. And writing something sensible? Like maybe we should put terrorists kids and parents in detention camps to dissuade other potential terrorists?


I don't understand why you keep comparing someone being run down by a car to someone, say, being deliberately blown up whilst going to a concert by an individual who believes our entire way of life should cease.

One is an accident, the other is an attack. An attack on our way of life......an attack on our children. These attacks seem to be escalating, becoming more frequent, more horrifying. They have nothing in common other than people dying. Why not mention cancer or plane crashes?

I'm sorry to hear about your cousin, genuinely I am. I served myself and have been to more repatriations and funerals than I would like to remember. It doesn't make your opinion, or mine, on a subject any more relevant though, sorry to say.


I was pointing out a disparity in emotional response to statistical probability. It didn't have anything to do with comparing an accident with an attack.

Our way of life has been under almost constant attack for as far back as you'd care to go. There have always been conflicting ideologies in the world and there always will be.
I think an increase in attacks is due to a simplification of method. Things like 9/11 and 7/7 were carefully planned and highly organised. This recent switch to using vehicles and simply targeting anyone on the street doesn't need any planning at all. It just needs some lunatic willing to kill and die. It's infinitely harder for the security forces to be effective against.
I'm firmly of the opinion that hate and finger pointing is in no way a positive use of anyones time or efforts.

I wasn't suggesting my opinion was any more relevant, merely that posting those opinions isn't 'fighting back', not in any practical way.
What is important is that we should speak up if we disagree with something.


We're in complete agreement at last! :i am genuinely amused: :i am genuinely amused:

We have been under consistent attack, but the difference here I think are the targets, who appear to be everyone, and also the perpetrators. These aren't some highly trained, organised terrorist cell. These cunts, for the most part, are bullied young men who have been brainwashed into a version of islam that has no room for our way of life.

You asked me earlier in the thread what I would do, or what is my opinion; I don't know how to solve the problem, if I did I wouldn't be posting here, but I have a couple of things I'd put out there:

- The last 3 attacks across Europe before Saturday night were perpetrated by those known to the security forces. We have approximately 3,500 known "risks" or jihadists in this country. 400 of them arrived back into this country after fighting for ISIS last year alone. They were let back in and "monitored." I have been and am a fervent backer of human rights, but we need to get these people in for interrogation, their email accts need to be hacked, their mobile phones.....all of them. If they're found to be involved in nothing, let them go and "monitor" them. My guess is a very good number will be caught with some very incriminating evidence.

- Internment. I have been one of those who've argued against the use of internment, but those deemed high risk should be arrested and either deported to known country of origin, or if British, interned, indefinitely. When confronted with the IRA threat in the 70, 80's and 90's, internment was used and I believe it should be again.

- Faith Schools. Ban them now. All of them. A society cannot be integrated when children are educated in such varying degrees. They're fucking dangerous.

- This last point I'm not sure how to implement or how it would work really.....but where an attack happens, or one is thwarted, the community that the perpetrator belonged to, namely the Mosque and senior figures within it, need to be more accountable. I don't know what that accountability looks like, but some of these extremists are coming from the same areas/mosques. Like I said, not really a fully formed idea.

I've gone off on a Frog style essay here, so apologies. I know the first 2 points are controversial and I don't like the fact that I'm suggesting them to be honest, but if something isn't done and soon, this is likely to get much worse with recriminations on both sides.
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Pennywise
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Pennywise » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:10 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Pennywise wrote:
Rescue of what/whom? This is an internet message board. People post opinions, then other members post their responses. I am reacting to your assertion that those who had posted on this thread had "surrendered." You posted that, not as a reply to mk, or banjo, you posted it as a reply to all. I didn't agree, so I posted my reply....to you.

There is no "wading in," this is a public message board. This is how public message boards work.

Mate, I don't mind handing out a dig and I don't mind taking one, my point was your original post targeted everybody. Coming from the man who has fervently argued (and argued well) against blanketing all Muslims with the same label, I just found that to be more than a touch hypocritical.

My whole point so far has been aimed at you, but I don't think I've made too many "digs," in fact, I've tried to be as civil as possible.

I used to be branded the lefty loony round here, it was me who was dismissive of the arguments of those on the right hand side of the political spectrum. I've softened a lot since those days, mainly because what has been happening to the world over the last decade or so.

The way you choose to have communicate with those you disagree is everything You are clearly an intelligent, well read, educated dude. But if you, and those like you, continue to belittle and rubbish the opinions of those who disagree with you, especially those who, say, might not be as well read, or well educated as you....... the protest votes, such as Brexit, Trump etc, will continue to happen.

Goes for all sides of the political argument by the way, the discourse at all levels HAS to improve, otherwise we risk becoming much like America and it's poisonous political bullshit.



Whose defence were you coming to then? You seemed to have a bee in your bonnet about some offence I might have caused to someone.
Who exactly did I assert had surrendered? I QUALIFIED that comment. Which I pointed out in my previous response.
And how exactly was that 'a reply to all''? It was clearly a qualified statement. If you disagree with my conclusion, fine, but don't try and pretend I was just randomly saying 'everyone has surrendered'.
'Wading in' is a turn of phrase, mate, you're not meant to take it literally.

Perhaps if I hadn't qualified what I wrote it could be said to have 'targeted everyone', but I was very specific.
I'm not quite sure anything taken out of context is ever hypocritical.

I have an average IQ, I read no more than most, and I left school at 15 with no qualifications to work in factory to support my family -- and believe me academically I was C thru F in every subject, so that was no hardship. Don't make me out to be something I'm not. I write as well as I can, I give my honest opinion, and if I feel it's warranted maybe there's a little disdain -- certainly about a list, but I don't rubbish anyone's opinion I ARGUE THE POINT, and trust me mate, I'm in no position to belittle anyone.

Nothing will change. Deep down we all know that. Voting for billionaires, trusting tabloid newspapers and false promises isn't a protest against anything.


An education doesn't have to be at a school or Uni mate, we're the same in that regard. goodpost:)
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terrya1965
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Re: London Bridge

Postby terrya1965 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:13 pm

I consider myself a person who would be friends with any creed or colour.I never go to stereotype anyone.I will mix and chat with anyone,no matter what.

But I do think the majority of Muslims would back their own,if it come to"Push and Shove".The majority would back Sharia Law,so that's a big worry in my book,

It is time for the government of this country to get tough.Love him or hate,Trump is right.We need the courts to bring us back our rights.We need to stop pussying around and get tough,otherwise it will happen time and time again.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:13 pm

papawhisky wrote:Brexit and Trump were not 'protest votes', they were simply votes. Just because the less liberal option won does not make it any different. They simply reflected a change in the views of the majority.

I do have one question for you neville...

We are hearing much recently about a watch list (supposedly 3000 people on it but the figure is irrelevant to the question). My personal opinion is that each and every person on that watch list should now be hauled in for thorough questioning, their homes and related premises searched and their phones and other devices checked for all correspondences and if that leads to added names on the watch list then they too be checked.

Do you think that would be appropriate or would it be violating their precious human rights?

P.S. I'm not assuming that you would, but please don't mention any outrage among the Muslim community at so many of their followers being questioned. I personally think that the majority of Muslims would welcome and understand such a move.


How many police do you think would be required to carry out the respective interrogations and searches of 3000 people? Though I had heard to number on these watch lists was 23000. And who is covering their police work while this is going on?
How would I know whose human rights were being violated unless I was privy to the evidence against them? One can only assume their behaviour isn't criminal otherwise they'd already be in jail or prison.

So, how exactly am I supposed to know if it's appropriate? It's certainly not practical.
But how are you or I meant to make a REASONED judgement based on knowing precisely nothing, other than that an indefinite number of people are being 'watched' for indefinite reasons?

Btw, I appreciate the lack of any vitriol in that post, thank you.
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Pennywise
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Pennywise » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:16 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
papawhisky wrote:Brexit and Trump were not 'protest votes', they were simply votes. Just because the less liberal option won does not make it any different. They simply reflected a change in the views of the majority.

I do have one question for you neville...

We are hearing much recently about a watch list (supposedly 3000 people on it but the figure is irrelevant to the question). My personal opinion is that each and every person on that watch list should now be hauled in for thorough questioning, their homes and related premises searched and their phones and other devices checked for all correspondences and if that leads to added names on the watch list then they too be checked.

Do you think that would be appropriate or would it be violating their precious human rights?

P.S. I'm not assuming that you would, but please don't mention any outrage among the Muslim community at so many of their followers being questioned. I personally think that the majority of Muslims would welcome and understand such a move.


How many police do you think would be required to carry out the respective interrogations and searches of 3000 people? Though I had heard to number on these watch lists was 23000. And who is covering their police work while this is going on?
How would I know whose human rights were being violated unless I was privy to the evidence against them? One can only assume their behaviour isn't criminal otherwise they'd already be in jail or prison.

So, how exactly am I supposed to know if it's appropriate? It's certainly not practical.
But how are you or I meant to make a REASONED judgement based on knowing precisely nothing, other than that an indefinite number of people are being 'watched' for indefinite reasons?

Btw, I appreciate the lack of any vitriol in that post, thank you.


I'm not entirely sure anyone is suggesting they're all brought in at once, but I don't think it would be outlandish to expect a well funded task force to be able to get through 3,000 suspects in less than a year.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:16 pm

terrya1965 wrote:I consider myself a person who would be friends with any creed or colour.I never go to stereotype anyone.I will mix and chat with anyone,no matter what.

But I do think the majority of Muslims would back their own,if it come to"Push and Shove".The majority would back Sharia Law,so that's a big worry in my book,

It is time for the government of this country to get tough.Love him or hate,Trump is right.We need the courts to bring us back our rights.We need to stop pussying around and get tough,otherwise it will happen time and time again.


They already have Sharia law courts in this country, which apparently government supports. That and state funded faith schools are an absolutely disgraceful state of affairs.
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jameskel
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Re: London Bridge

Postby jameskel » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:17 pm

Terry, how we will get our country back?

It's an impossible task

Ok, so no state funded faith schools. Everybody is entitled to have a faith and to learn. Would you be happy for you kids to have full lessons on Islam, and be part of the curriculum?

I am guessing 80% would say no, the other will be the right on Middle Class

Its fucking impossible
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Pennywise
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Pennywise » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:20 pm

jameskel wrote:Terry, how we will get our country back?

It's an impossible task


Fucking hell, Yoda's turned up. :i am genuinely amused: :i am genuinely amused:
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