London Bridge

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Pennywise
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Pennywise » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:46 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Pennywise wrote:
The military already assist the Police in any of these cases, this has been the norm since the 7/7 attacks mate.

I said it needs to be done by a "well funded task force." That task force should be operate outside of normal policing duties. This force already exists, it needs strengthening, funding and a remit to try and gather as much intelligence as possible,

The goal is simple intelligence gathering, as I have already said. Confiscation of any communication devices and thorough questioning, where further leads avail themselves, they should be followed to their conclusion, where nothing is found, release and monitoring.

The finite detail and minutiae are not my job or concern, there are those who work in these areas that are far more qualified than I.

My heart will sink if we experience another attack and the words "The attacker was known to the security services" are uttered from a news reporter.


The military should have no role in policing their own citizens. If the military are involved that just means the security services are coming up short.
Look at the cuts, mate. Military down 20,000, police down 25,000. Even the promise of 'extra' armed police will only return levels to what they were in 2010.
A well funded task force, with a remit to circumvent the law, in the name of non specific intelligence gathering? Sounds very much like a secret police.

I don't think there's much doubt that these kinds of attacks will continue. I just hope we don't go down the route of paranoia and hate. I don't want to live in a police state, no matter how safe it is.


I agree, but there are anti-terrorist units that do work closely with their police counterparts, I've probably over exaggerated what role they would take in my imaginary task force.

I've not once suggested they circumvent the law, if the laws don't exist to allow the police services to do as has been suggested then the law needs looking at. We know who these people are, yet they are killing innocent people. The current process/procedures/laws are clearly insufficient.

I have also argued, as you have, that we need to be careful when giving our security services and government even more power, you only need to look at the arguments for more cctv on our streets. They would only be use for evidence in "serious crime" and to help protect us from terrorists.....you now have councils using them to fine people for putting the bins out on the wrong day.

But if the laws are not sufficient enough for the jobs that need to be done, then we need to trust that any laws that come in will only effect those it targets....wishful thinking I know.

The threat has changed, I don't even like calling these dickheads "terrorists." They're fucking nobodies with access to a vehicle and some kitchen knives.

The way we look after our citizens needs to change along with the threat in my opinion.
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Pennywise
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Pennywise » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:02 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Pennywise wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
I was pointing out a disparity in emotional response to statistical probability. It didn't have anything to do with comparing an accident with an attack.

Our way of life has been under almost constant attack for as far back as you'd care to go. There have always been conflicting ideologies in the world and there always will be.
I think an increase in attacks is due to a simplification of method. Things like 9/11 and 7/7 were carefully planned and highly organised. This recent switch to using vehicles and simply targeting anyone on the street doesn't need any planning at all. It just needs some lunatic willing to kill and die. It's infinitely harder for the security forces to be effective against.
I'm firmly of the opinion that hate and finger pointing is in no way a positive use of anyones time or efforts.

I wasn't suggesting my opinion was any more relevant, merely that posting those opinions isn't 'fighting back', not in any practical way.
What is important is that we should speak up if we disagree with something.


We're in complete agreement at last! :i am genuinely amused: :i am genuinely amused:

We have been under consistent attack, but the difference here I think are the targets, who appear to be everyone, and also the perpetrators. These aren't some highly trained, organised terrorist cell. These cunts, for the most part, are bullied young men who have been brainwashed into a version of islam that has no room for our way of life.

You asked me earlier in the thread what I would do, or what is my opinion; I don't know how to solve the problem, if I did I wouldn't be posting here, but I have a couple of things I'd put out there:

- The last 3 attacks across Europe before Saturday night were perpetrated by those known to the security forces. We have approximately 3,500 known "risks" or jihadists in this country. 400 of them arrived back into this country after fighting for ISIS last year alone. They were let back in and "monitored." I have been and am a fervent backer of human rights, but we need to get these people in for interrogation, their email accts need to be hacked, their mobile phones.....all of them. If they're found to be involved in nothing, let them go and "monitor" them. My guess is a very good number will be caught with some very incriminating evidence.

- Internment. I have been one of those who've argued against the use of internment, but those deemed high risk should be arrested and either deported to known country of origin, or if British, interned, indefinitely. When confronted with the IRA threat in the 70, 80's and 90's, internment was used and I believe it should be again.

- Faith Schools. Ban them now. All of them. A society cannot be integrated when children are educated in such varying degrees. They're fucking dangerous.

- This last point I'm not sure how to implement or how it would work really.....but where an attack happens, or one is thwarted, the community that the perpetrator belonged to, namely the Mosque and senior figures within it, need to be more accountable. I don't know what that accountability looks like, but some of these extremists are coming from the same areas/mosques. Like I said, not really a fully formed idea.

I've gone off on a Frog style essay here, so apologies. I know the first 2 points are controversial and I don't like the fact that I'm suggesting them to be honest, but if something isn't done and soon, this is likely to get much worse with recriminations on both sides.


I agree entirely on faith schools. To be honest I think they're ticking fucking time bombs. I doubt there will ever be meaningful integration if faith schools are going to be part of the system. I genuinely do not understand why no-one in government can see the problem here. I know faith schools generally achieve better results, but at what cost?

I have a problem putting anyone in prison without due process. We supposedly live in a free democracy. Once we go down that route who knows where it will end. What's that phrase about roads paved with good intentions?

I've always thought that Mosques should answer to a central body. One that can monitor what is being preached and who is preaching it, but like you I can't be bothered with the practicalities. As you say this might provide some accountability and perhaps more importantly some positive direction.

It's hard to imagine anyone being monitored isn't having their emails, phones and whatever else monitored too. But unless people are being physically watched how do you stop someone hiring a van or buying a knife? And even if that does happen how would one know the intent was to commit an act of terror before it actually happened?


Faith Schools, well, we can thank Labour for that one mate. Until 1997 the only "faith schools" that were state funded were Christian and Jewish. They were lobbied to include other faiths and, mainly in part due to the reluctance of the government to abolish those Christian and Jewish faith schools, they acquiesced and included those "minority faiths." I seem to remember, but can't say for sure, that Blair's kids went to a Catholic school, but I can't say for sure.

What they should have done was abolish faith schools altogether, they're a truly fucking disgusting idea. Full stop.

I would feel the same regarding internment if it wasn't for the threat, it's one I'm split on to be honest.....but continually hearing that any attackers were known to authorities is honestly starting to grip my shit.

I absolutely imagine that they are being monitored....but they will be getting monitored on devices and numbers that they security forces know about. I have absolutely no doubt that these fucks will be using numbers, accounts and/or devices that they don't know about. This is why I think they should be lifted, their homes searched, devices confiscated and them thoroughly investigated. Again, as with the internment piece, it flies in the face of what our democracy and legal system says is right, but if it stops even one more attack, I'd say it was worth inconveniencing however many people it took to be honest.

We can't stop every attack, it's impossible, we can't follow every would be jihadi john 24/7, but we can do more than we're doing.

It's not an easy topic, long term it's a fucking nightmare, but short term we can and should at least try to lesson the threat.
Last edited by Pennywise on Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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grandad
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Re: London Bridge

Postby grandad » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:15 pm

Who's to blame for all of this

Well not 100 % but 90 plus %



Tony Blair
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h69
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Re: London Bridge

Postby h69 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:39 pm

Pennywise wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
Pennywise wrote:

I'm not entirely sure anyone is suggesting they're all brought in at once, but I don't think it would be outlandish to expect a well funded task force to be able to get through 3,000 suspects in less than a year.


Cuts to the police under the upcoming Tory government would suggest this is not an option.
And given the disparity in figures I've seen with regards to how many people are being monitored, surely 3000 is best case scenario. And then there's the costs. The law would need to be changed. Could they sue afterwards?
Do they all get a barrister? Is the judiciary involved? Is it left to the military? The intelligence services? The regular police? And what is the point of the interrogation? What is the specific goal of pulling in these 3000 people? They're going to confess? What could they be charged with?
And what's the knock on effect? Terror laws have been used to disperse or arrest people who are clearly not terrorists. How long before interrogating someone under new terror laws becomes a convenient way of intimidating people?
Call me pedantic, but I don't think it's ever as simple as 'that's a good idea' or 'that's justified' or 'reasonable'.


The military already assist the Police in any of these cases, this has been the norm since the 7/7 attacks mate.

I said it needs to be done by a "well funded task force." That task force should be operate outside of normal policing duties. This force already exists, it needs strengthening, funding and a remit to try and gather as much intelligence as possible,

The goal is simple intelligence gathering, as I have already said. Confiscation of any communication devices and thorough questioning, where further leads avail themselves, they should be followed to their conclusion, where nothing is found, release and monitoring.

The finite detail and minutiae are not my job or concern, there are those who work in these areas that are far more qualified than I.

My heart will sink if we experience another attack and the words "The attacker was known to the security services" are uttered from a news reporter.


I agree with a lot of this.

We dont usually have the military helping unless there is a national crisis.
We dont usually intern people while interrogating them unless there is a national crisis.

Guess what, there is a national crisis and that means taking special measures. Its all very well people harping on about more Police on the street and more community officers but that would have made no difference to Saturday....in fact from the time they were called until they had shot dead the perps was 8 mins.....a truly superb effort. There were a lot more Armed Police in 2005 from what I remember and 7/7 still happened....Police on the street wont change this.

The problem is more that the security services have a difficult task when monitoring someone....they can pull them in early but then risk losing others above them or they can wait until the last minute in an effort to uncover a whole cell network.....its always been like this and one wrong call and people die....seems to me that more often than not they make the right call since they have foiled a number of other incidents....5 I believe is the number reported since March.

I am all for hauling these people in and forensically going through their lives, technology, etc. Incarcerate any British citizen who is involved in any kind of illicit hate activity and deport those that are not British immediately.

It may seem heavy handed but I would rather removes these people's rights to privacy than have them remove someone's rights to live

Corbyn or May....We CAN do this, it should transcend party politics.....we just need to stop worrying about offending anyone.
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BlackDiamond
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Re: London Bridge

Postby BlackDiamond » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:19 pm

Pennywise wrote:
The threat has changed, I don't even like calling these dickheads "terrorists." They're fucking nobodies with access to a vehicle and some kitchen knives.

The way we look after our citizens needs to change along with the threat in my opinion.

It's interesting and I came to a similar opinion myself.

The interesting point - reported pretty much in all the media and therefore believable - was one of the killers before using his knife, declared "this is for my family...this is for Islam..."

Now we have no idea what "this is for my family..." means.

Does it mean his family in Britain or an extended family abroad. But what we can interpret is,it was in some form a warning, immediately followed by a justification...THIS IS FOR...

Which indicates it was important to HIM that in some way, his action was justifiable to HIMSELF. He didn't want people to think that he stabbed a complete stranger merely because he met them and felt like it. Only the truly feeble minded insane would do something that mad. And he knew that clearly.

So some weird self perception is going on here. And being labelled as a terrorist is not the worst description imaginable. It's only a short hop and skip from terrorism to freedom fighter in some eyes and freedom fighter helps conjure up notions. of sacrifice and great bravery.

Now had he known that he would have been labelled a shabby cunt instead of a terrorist,then maybe,just maybe,the whole adventure would have seemed less warrior like from the outset.

Now that might seem a ludicrous language to use in the face of such serious events but personal self worth is very important to these people. How could it not be so. They even plot the precise time of their own death.

And language can be very important, as it's use in the charging of Marine A at his well publicised trial illustrated. It's worth reminding ourselves of what happened in Afghanistan.

Marine A (that was and still is identifier used) was out on patrol with Military when they encountered a wounded Taliban fighter. Marine A shot and killed him saying just beforehand "Shuffle off this mortal coil,you cunt"

Unfortunately the audio & video was captured on one of the troops body cams and later the recorded material was viewed back at base, which is how the world learned of the affair.

The language used was printed in most newspapers uncensored and it was unfortunate for Marine A that he had managed to co-join one of Shakespeare's famous lines from Hamlet with a favourite crudity beloved by Chaucer. Intelligent Marine A or what. "Shuffle off this mortal coil,you cunt..."

What did it all mean and why did he say it. Did he think it would amuse those who heard it. Who would laugh watching a wounded man executed, even if he was the enemy. Who wouldn't.

It's worth noting - as I brought it up - Marine A was found guilty at court martial and received ten years imprisonment. Later reduced to eight years because of recognition of combat fatigue.Two years off for stress.
Very recently released from prison on appeal. Not for me to comment but seems fair.

...so it might seem language can get you into trouble and it might just be able to get one out of trouble as well.

...call them shabby cunts in future...we might just effect a drop-off in recruitment...
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Dwayne Pipes
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Dwayne Pipes » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Well one of them shabby cunts was with other shabby cunts kissing and prancing about with the Islamic flag for some poxy Tv show ,should have all been nicked and banged up.
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terrya1965
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Re: London Bridge

Postby terrya1965 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:59 pm

Dwayne Pipes wrote:Eight minutes from the start of this atrocity to the killing of these vermin ,you think extra plod on our streets would have done the job quicker?


That is only in certain places..4 or 5 Cities in England that can use "Quick Response" because of the cuts.
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mkhammer
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Re: London Bridge

Postby mkhammer » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:03 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
mkhammer wrote:

You really don't listen and try and understand other peoples opinions do you pal
I can assure you I'm less of a bigot than you will ever be..
if you actually took the time to read my post,I said something along the lines of
It goes against all my principles....I am desperately looking for an answer to curtail
what is happening,because it is ripping me to pieces to see innocent,men and women
boys and girls being killed by these people.

It's obvious I understand what drives these arsewipes to do the things they do far
better than you.

You and the doogooders really need to take a bit of a time out and read some of
the Koran these people are taken their doctrine from.
They are not fighting for their families,land,freedom,a better life, you name it..
They are prepared to kill every single person they can until YOU Neville,and me
everyone reading this,everyone in the UK,Middle east,World, adopts the same preachings
they choose to follow.

We could pull out of their so called caliphate,leave them totally alone to do what ever they
want to do,(which obviously you have no idea what that entails)
Walk around with flowers in our hair,quoting "peace man" and singing
Crosby Stills and Nash songs and they would still want to cut your head fuckin off Neville
Do you not get it..........

You also need some understanding of peoples raw emotions,anger,frustration,wanting to
fight back ......to do something...

I'm as big an atheist as you can get,but am interested in different religions and
teachings,and have take the time to get a basic knowledge of most of them.

I doubt I will reply to you if answer this,because you will probably interpret something
I've said into making me to be some kinda bigot again,but good luck with it pal...

Write something sensible and who knows i might..


You're trying to lecture me on empathy, is that it?
So, suggesting something utterly irrational that goes against all your principles is empathetic, is reasonable, is it?

In all seriousness do you think a terrorist killing someone is more horrific or deserving of something more than a drunk driver or a joyrider plowing into a bunch of children? Do you think the parents of the victims are anymore distraught or destroyed? Are they any less ripped apart?

You understand them? You understand how a man with a wife and two small children can commit mass murder and suicide? You think that man cares enough about his family to think twice? Remember, he has a wife and two small children.

How am I a do gooder exactly? Because I'm not irrational, or hateful, or posting lists of lies about Muslims?
I'm an atheist so of course I've read the Quran, I've read lots of religious texts.
Terrorists who go out and commit atrocities are brainwashed into believing everything you say they're not fighting for.
There is no agenda to have us all believe the same thing. Sunni Muslims kill Shia Muslims, Kurd Muslims kill Turkish Muslims and vice versa. They blow up each others Mosques, they murder each others children.
There's no grand scheme, no grand plan. It's petty little factions; ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, El Shabaab, desperately trying to carve out some horrific little corner of the world so they can lord it over a bunch of natives by cutting their heads off and stoning them to death.

Do they want to cut my head off. I'm an atheist so possibly. Am I more likely to get run down by a car. Yes, of course. Do I need to have an emotional angry response to motorists because of that? No.

Isn't everyone angry and frustrated at terrorism?
Can you ever remember a time without terrorism?
And is posting stuff on football forum so like minded people can like it really fighting back?
I actually knew someone who fought back, who did it properly, my cousin in fact, https://www.gov.uk/government/fatalitie ... fghanistan

Please don't credit me with calling you a bigot before the event. And writing something sensible? Like maybe we should put terrorists kids and parents in detention camps to dissuade other potential terrorists?


You just keep making stuff up mate...
I'm not lecturing anyone on anything,i have my views ,which I try and put across on HC
without offending anyone,even to the point of not offending any decent muslims who might
be reading our stuff and want to take part.

I am sorry but yes i do think walking into a music venue and trying to blow up and maim as
many children as possible,worse than a drunk driver...There are drunk drivers i would
personally shoot,but there are some,who might be having mental brake downs,struggling
with life for one reason or another,need to here their story first,before having an opinion.

If you have read the parts of the Koran these scumbags are using to kill our children then
you should well know there IS a Grand Plan,there IS a Grand scheme,that's what the whole
thing is about,and a lot of people who should be are not getting it..

Where the fuck did the detention camp thing come from....making things up again
not nice pal to be honest...
Putting children in detention camps FFS....
Read my posts correctly mate.

Yes i can remember a time without terrorism in this country,worldwide no not really..

Sorry if i'm wrong but it did come across that you might be of the opinion that
was one of the people that I detest.....
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Banjo
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Banjo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:43 pm

Local Iraqi man in London shares his reaction to the London Bridge Attacks on Periscope.

GPS shows he was streaming close to the area in Kensington, London.


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Noni
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Re: London Bridge

Postby Noni » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:26 pm



A documentary released last year... One of the London attackers appears in this video.... A very disturbing and shocking documentary.
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