White City fire

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Gonzo
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Re: White City fire

Postby Gonzo » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:42 pm

What a terrible way to go, it must have been truly frightening.
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Diamondhammer
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Re: White City fire

Postby Diamondhammer » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:31 am

As a building services engineer of 40+ years designing apartment blocks and other buildings. What keeps on coming over by various survivors was there were no alarms. Almost certainly they are right, that's not the council or housing organisation trying to save money, it's what we are told to do by fire engineers, the experts. I can't help thinking that if a fire alarm was installed in the communal areas no one would get a goods night sleep.......ever ! Nuisance alarms and general vandalism would cause sounders to be going off all hours of the day.

They are also told to stay put and that is a sound policy, however it is so important that the fire compartmentation is maintained. On a new building I am confident that this is properly designed to avoid any possible breaches. On an old building where perhaps a fire alarm may have been installed years ago adopting the stay put policy is relying on the refurbishment being done correctly and using the experts to design the refurbishment, and to ensure the construction has been correctly installed and signed off.

Just mentioned on Sky about the cosmetic cladding. It's installed to improve heat losses and to help with fuel poverty, and to reduce the carbon footprint for the building. It does appear the installation of the cladding and the material used is under scrutiny. It isn't installed to make the building look nice, that's just a coincidence.

One thing for sure I'm glad it's not one of mine, but I have worked with Rydon on other refurb projects (not high rise) in London. I'm sure the architects, Rydon, building control and the council are shitting it right now, I know I would be.
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doughboy
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Re: White City fire

Postby doughboy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:20 am

goodpost:) so a corporate manslaughter case possibly?
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BlackDiamond
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Re: White City fire

Postby BlackDiamond » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:13 pm

Diamondhammer wrote:As a building services engineer of 40+ years designing apartment blocks and other buildings. What keeps on coming over by various survivors was there were no alarms. Almost certainly they are right, that's not the council or housing organisation trying to save money, it's what we are told to do by fire engineers, the experts. I can't help thinking that if a fire alarm was installed in the communal areas no one would get a goods night sleep.......ever ! Nuisance alarms and general vandalism would cause sounders to be going off all hours of the day.

They are also told to stay put and that is a sound policy, however it is so important that the fire compartmentation is maintained. On a new building I am confident that this is properly designed to avoid any possible breaches. On an old building where perhaps a fire alarm may have been installed years ago adopting the stay put policy is relying on the refurbishment being done correctly and using the experts to design the refurbishment, and to ensure the construction has been correctly installed and signed off.

Just mentioned on Sky about the cosmetic cladding. It's installed to improve heat losses and to help with fuel poverty, and to reduce the carbon footprint for the building. It does appear the installation of the cladding and the material used is under scrutiny. It isn't installed to make the building look nice, that's just a coincidence.

One thing for sure I'm glad it's not one of mine, but I have worked with Rydon on other refurb projects (not high rise) in London. I'm sure the architects, Rydon, building control and the council are shitting it right now, I know I would be.

Reports suggest the cladding was a new installation consisting of two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core. An alternative cladding with a mineral core is considered - by those who are paid to have an opinion on these matters - less flammable.
I imagine the choice of material used is determinant on the project cost elements.Basic economics.

Presumably the statutory safety certificates were obtained and they are like grandma's nightgown - they cover everything. And in this case,a bloody good job too...
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Whiskyman
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Re: White City fire

Postby Whiskyman » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:39 am

Diamondhammer wrote:As a building services engineer of 40+ years designing apartment blocks and other buildings. What keeps on coming over by various survivors was there were no alarms. Almost certainly they are right, that's not the council or housing organisation trying to save money, it's what we are told to do by fire engineers, the experts. I can't help thinking that if a fire alarm was installed in the communal areas no one would get a goods night sleep.......ever ! Nuisance alarms and general vandalism would cause sounders to be going off all hours of the day.

They are also told to stay put and that is a sound policy, however it is so important that the fire compartmentation is maintained. On a new building I am confident that this is properly designed to avoid any possible breaches. On an old building where perhaps a fire alarm may have been installed years ago adopting the stay put policy is relying on the refurbishment being done correctly and using the experts to design the refurbishment, and to ensure the construction has been correctly installed and signed off.

Just mentioned on Sky about the cosmetic cladding. It's installed to improve heat losses and to help with fuel poverty, and to reduce the carbon footprint for the building. It does appear the installation of the cladding and the material used is under scrutiny. It isn't installed to make the building look nice, that's just a coincidence.

One thing for sure I'm glad it's not one of mine, but I have worked with Rydon on other refurb projects (not high rise) in London. I'm sure the architects, Rydon, building control and the council are shitting it right now, I know I would be.


If Rydon were the contractor wouldn't they have been obliged to use a specified product? In other words surely it isn't Rydon's fault if the materials they were told to use by the specifier weren't of an appropriate standard. Always assuming of course they did use the materials specified and not a cheaper alternative.

All speculation at the moment of course.
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palerider
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Re: White City fire

Postby palerider » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:53 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Diamondhammer wrote:As a building services engineer of 40+ years designing apartment blocks and other buildings. What keeps on coming over by various survivors was there were no alarms. Almost certainly they are right, that's not the council or housing organisation trying to save money, it's what we are told to do by fire engineers, the experts. I can't help thinking that if a fire alarm was installed in the communal areas no one would get a goods night sleep.......ever ! Nuisance alarms and general vandalism would cause sounders to be going off all hours of the day.

They are also told to stay put and that is a sound policy, however it is so important that the fire compartmentation is maintained. On a new building I am confident that this is properly designed to avoid any possible breaches. On an old building where perhaps a fire alarm may have been installed years ago adopting the stay put policy is relying on the refurbishment being done correctly and using the experts to design the refurbishment, and to ensure the construction has been correctly installed and signed off.

Just mentioned on Sky about the cosmetic cladding. It's installed to improve heat losses and to help with fuel poverty, and to reduce the carbon footprint for the building. It does appear the installation of the cladding and the material used is under scrutiny. It isn't installed to make the building look nice, that's just a coincidence.

One thing for sure I'm glad it's not one of mine, but I have worked with Rydon on other refurb projects (not high rise) in London. I'm sure the architects, Rydon, building control and the council are shitting it right now, I know I would be.


If Rydon were the contractor wouldn't they have been obliged to use a specified product? In other words surely it isn't Rydon's fault if the materials they were told to use by the specifier weren't of an appropriate standard. Always assuming of course they did use the materials specified and not a cheaper alternative.

All speculation at the moment of course.

In today's Mail there's a piece about the cost of the cladding. The stuff Rydon used is £22 per square metre according to them which is just £2 psm cheaper than the fire-resistant equivalent. The cladding used on the Grenfell tower is banned in the USA for use on anything other than low-rise non-residential buildings.

While I think it's wrong for politicians to make sweeping statements for political gain atm, when obviously emotions are high and many look for blame, Theresa May has done the right thing by calling for a public enquiry.

The total cost for the fire-resistant cladding for the whole tower would have been less than 5k.

Whatever the outcome of the enquiry, there's a nice little spot in Hell reserved for the boss of Rydon.


Ps Tim. I saw a bloke on the news dishing out clothes and stuff to the people affected that was a dead ringer for you. Was it you ?
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Hammerwell
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Re: White City fire

Postby Hammerwell » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:43 am

Such a shame and thoughts with the families affected by this .........


TBH , I think that's the least any Government should do is hold an enquiry . So many people dead / injured , someone has to take responsibility for this . I think they should be looking at the cuts they have been putting in our emergency services also ... ..

A big thank you to all those that put their own lives at risk to help others . I can't imagine how hard it is for some of them firefighters walking into danger like that and seeing what they must of seen . Imo there's no training that can prepare you for something like that and I'd like to see the Government doing all they can to support them financially & emotionally
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Whiskyman
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Re: White City fire

Postby Whiskyman » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:08 am

palerider wrote:
Whiskyman wrote:
Diamondhammer wrote:As a building services engineer of 40+ years designing apartment blocks and other buildings. What keeps on coming over by various survivors was there were no alarms. Almost certainly they are right, that's not the council or housing organisation trying to save money, it's what we are told to do by fire engineers, the experts. I can't help thinking that if a fire alarm was installed in the communal areas no one would get a goods night sleep.......ever ! Nuisance alarms and general vandalism would cause sounders to be going off all hours of the day.

They are also told to stay put and that is a sound policy, however it is so important that the fire compartmentation is maintained. On a new building I am confident that this is properly designed to avoid any possible breaches. On an old building where perhaps a fire alarm may have been installed years ago adopting the stay put policy is relying on the refurbishment being done correctly and using the experts to design the refurbishment, and to ensure the construction has been correctly installed and signed off.

Just mentioned on Sky about the cosmetic cladding. It's installed to improve heat losses and to help with fuel poverty, and to reduce the carbon footprint for the building. It does appear the installation of the cladding and the material used is under scrutiny. It isn't installed to make the building look nice, that's just a coincidence.

One thing for sure I'm glad it's not one of mine, but I have worked with Rydon on other refurb projects (not high rise) in London. I'm sure the architects, Rydon, building control and the council are shitting it right now, I know I would be.


If Rydon were the contractor wouldn't they have been obliged to use a specified product? In other words surely it isn't Rydon's fault if the materials they were told to use by the specifier weren't of an appropriate standard. Always assuming of course they did use the materials specified and not a cheaper alternative.

All speculation at the moment of course.

In today's Mail there's a piece about the cost of the cladding. The stuff Rydon used is £22 per square metre according to them which is just £2 psm cheaper than the fire-resistant equivalent. The cladding used on the Grenfell tower is banned in the USA for use on anything other than low-rise non-residential buildings.

While I think it's wrong for politicians to make sweeping statements for political gain atm, when obviously emotions are high and many look for blame, Theresa May has done the right thing by calling for a public enquiry.

The total cost for the fire-resistant cladding for the whole tower would have been less than 5k.

Whatever the outcome of the enquiry, there's a nice little spot in Hell reserved for the boss of Rydon.



That's true if it was Rydon who cut costs by using an inferior cladding. But if Rydon conformed to the job specification (from the architect or design team) then it would be the specifier, and not the contractor, who was liable. In fact a very large part of me hopes the fault lies with the town hall jobsworths in the borough housing maintenance department.

That said if the fire resistant stuff was specified and Rydon used a non fire resistant cheaper version, without the client approving it, they are in very deep shit.
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Diamondhammer
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Re: White City fire

Postby Diamondhammer » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:41 pm

I wouldn't have expected Rydon to be at fault they are contractors working to a specification prepared to meet a clients brief it would be dendant though how the contract was let, for example Rydon may have had design responsibility and even though they engaged architects to prepare construction drawings the buck would stop with them. Personally I believe the manufacturer of the panels should be looking at themselves here. Just because something complies with the standards if there is evidence to suggest that the cladding system is unsafe as in other incidents worldwide then professionally they should have withdrawn their product from the marketplace.
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jameskel
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Re: White City fire

Postby jameskel » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:47 pm

Horrible event, sympathy goes out to all.

But

Starting to hear, more and more, of the money involved, the pay outs. As Kim says, leave's a nasty taste in your mouth
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