Tommy Robinson

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FlatCapDave
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by FlatCapDave » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:54 am

Christ Gonzo, we need to get you on Question Time! ;)
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Neville Bartos
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:56 am

Gonzo wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
I understand what you're saying, mate, but Shia, Sunni and Sufi are all based around different interpretations.
And to be clear, the Hadiths are reports of what Mohammed did, whereas the Quran is (allegedly) his own words. So, in effect, the Hadiths are an effort, by others, to set a framework for how to interpret Muhammad's words and actions.

There is a clear interpretive and dogmatic disconnect between Sufism and mainstream Islam though. Less emphasis is placed on the Hadiths and Sharia law and more on spiritual and ritualised praise.
They don't believe that Sharia should be the only legal system for Muslims, let alone non-Muslims, and are quite happy to embrace democracy.

Seriously, once you start reading about the differences between Sufism and mainstream Islam, you start to see that those differences are huge.

Even between Sunni and Shia there are differences on how they view the Hadiths.

To quote; 'The Sunni and Shiite sects of Islam encompass a wide spectrum of doctrine, opinion and schools of thought. The branches are in agreement on many aspects of Islam, but there are considerable disagreements within each. Both branches include worshipers who run the gamut from secular to fundamentalist. Shiites consider Ali and the leaders who came after him as imams. Most believe in a line of 12 imams, the last of whom, a boy, is believed to have vanished in the ninth century in Iraq after his father was murdered. Shiites known as Twelvers anticipate his return as the Mahdi, or Messiah. Because of the different paths the two sects took, Sunnis emphasize God’s power in the material world, sometimes including the public and political realm, while Shiites place value in martyrdom and sacrifice.'

The real tragedy of all this is that Sufis, the smallest and most peaceful Islamic sect of the three are horribly persecuted by mainstream fundamentalists.

So, I don't buy into the idea that the path is pretty well defined and deviation is just that. Sufism proves that a very different approach is entirely possible... it's just a shame it's not much more common.

And therein lies the problem in this country I'm afraid.

The one branch of Islam that does truly integrate is the Ahmadiyya. I used to live in Sutton and used to pass through Morden where they had a mosque.

The women wore veils but it was more a headscarf and always very colorful and the men were bearded but it was more stubble and they had a very different attire to what we are used to seeing Muslims wear. The very fact that women are to be seen at the mosque at all sets it apart straight away but they are very inclusive.

There were some football pitches opposite which the Ahmadiyya community took on and looked after for everyone in the local area. The council had previously run them and the subs were shocking and crippling to local clubs but the Mosque took on all the costs and upgraded the facilities.

They used to have 'British' days too and the women would all wear Union Jack headscarfs and they festooned the mosque in British (and Chelsea :?) flags as well as inviting everyone in for grub and putting on a fair at the football pitches.

Sounds lovely eh?

Well as more and more started to move into the area a lot of the local business's were taken over by those attending the mosque. I got very friendly with the owner of the off-licence who told me a bit more about their beliefs and the mosque.

They are basically outcasts. He explained how the Saudi's were funding mosques in Britain and how conservative Islam was on the rise. They'd paid over £10m to build that Mosque in Morden and he said the budget was dwarfed by what the Saudis were ploughing in to promote the Salafi-Wahhabi doctrine in this country.

It wasn't just the Wahhabi's either. They were seen as too liberal by both the mainstream Sunni and Shia and had been forced to leave their old mosque by other muslims. These liberal and progressive muslims were completely outnumbered by various forms of conservative Islam in this country.

I thought he was being over dramatic really but he once said to me. "They'll get us here too, the attacks will continue. The problem with many Muslims is that they come here (Britain) for a new life but they bring all of the old conflicts with them. The Sunni still want to murder the Shia and they all still want to murder Jews & Christians".

Once the attacks started I knew he wasn't bullshitting.
There was constant graffiti (illegible to me but Akhi told me they were threats), non-stop vandalism, infidel sprayed on the imams cars, attacks and three arson attempts.

Much wasn't reported to the police but the railings got higher and the security got better but it wasn't enough. Eventually the thing was set completely ablaze and considering this mosque was about half the size of Upton Park it was an almighty fire. According to a friend of mine they were pulling in fire crews from 5 neighboring boroughs.

I've seen liberal Islam mate and they got fucked because they are a minority and the majority have to desire to reform. Quilliam are giving it a go and I really like Maajid but I see no evidence either in the UK or globally to suggest Islam is reformable.
Can't argue with that mate. More than 85% of the world's Muslims are Sunni, and most of the rest are Shia. Those smaller sects are just getting buried.
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whu
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by whu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:04 am

some cracking posts here chaps
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mkhammer
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by mkhammer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:52 am

Religion just reflects life,in every walk of it you have,Extreme views,Moderate Views,and the
"yeah whatever lot"... :lol:... Politics to Footie....and everything in between.

Footies a good example.....some live and breathe it...some are just Saturday Fans...others
support us but would struggle to name 4 players........and some wanna go and punch the fuck
out of someone cos they're not West Ham....

This is exactly how the majority ,in fact I would say all of religions work,this is where we are
with the Muslim situation at present.....Some are clinging on to certain texts in the Koran,but the
Majority...huge Majority are devout,but have "modernised" they know these writings exist,but
ignore them....in the same way a christian ignores and doesn't preach from the Old Testament,
where it tells you to "Stone to Death" family members indeed own parents if they are non believers.
(Koran certainly takes some of it writings from the old testament I reckon)
word for word nearly in places.

What happens is certain factions break off and become..a separate group...almost a cult
if you like......with little or no resemblance to the modern day version of it's religion...

Muslims are just the most friendliest of people you could wish for,so to blame the religion
for a cult spin off is a bit unfair in my Opinion....

Religion as a Whole is the problem.....always has been,prob always will be,but I understand
why its there......but that's another topic...


By the way some brilliant posts guys....great reading....
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Neville Bartos
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:53 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:Christ Gonzo, we need to get you on Question Time! ;)
He should go into politics shouldn't he? I'd vote for him.
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FlatCapDave
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by FlatCapDave » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:10 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
FlatCapDave wrote:Christ Gonzo, we need to get you on Question Time! ;)
He should go into politics shouldn't he? I'd vote for him.
So would I.....if he binned that Starwars t-shirt he has! :D
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Gonzo
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by Gonzo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:48 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
He should go into politics shouldn't he? I'd vote for him.
So would I.....if he binned that Starwars t-shirt he has! :D

I was going to wheel it out for tonight's podcast :lol:

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4ever-blowin-bubbles
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by 4ever-blowin-bubbles » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:30 pm

tommy robinson and nigel farage together in politics
i think that would be a dream team they would get my vote
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whu
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by whu » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:49 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
FlatCapDave wrote:Christ Gonzo, we need to get you on Question Time! ;)
He should go into politics shouldn't he? I'd vote for him.
you vote for any cunt/mostly cunts, is my guess .... ;) :lol: shakeass whufc_crest
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Neville Bartos
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Re: Tommy Robinson

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:10 pm

whu wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
He should go into politics shouldn't he? I'd vote for him.
you vote for any cunt/mostly cunts, is my guess .... ;) :i am genuinely amused: shakeass whufc_crest
Hang on, didn't you vote UKIP? Talk about pots and kettles. :lol:
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