British politics.

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palerider
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Re: British politics.

Postby palerider » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:04 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:My word...

Liam Fox then: 'it will be the easiest deal ever'
Liam Fox now: 'Odds are we'll end up with no deal'.
Cunt.


You have to remember though, it's in the EU's best interests to see us crash and burn to an extent, because there will be eyes on how we get on post-EU, and any success could be impetus for other countries to do the same.

If everything went swimmingly, and it was all roses then what's to stop other countries saying "wait a minute, why are we paying into this club when we can get on just as well outside it?"

Exactly the reason. In 5 years time the EU will exist in name only because of the far right parties seizing on unfettered immigration, rightly or wrongly. Whatever your views on that, who pays for hundreds of thousands of the largely unskilled and poorly educated arrivals ? Which is why, with our contributions ending they need to keep a tight grip on everyone else.

But it will be liking pissing into the wind.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:35 pm

palerider wrote:
FlatCapDave wrote:
You have to remember though, it's in the EU's best interests to see us crash and burn to an extent, because there will be eyes on how we get on post-EU, and any success could be impetus for other countries to do the same.

If everything went swimmingly, and it was all roses then what's to stop other countries saying "wait a minute, why are we paying into this club when we can get on just as well outside it?"

Exactly the reason. In 5 years time the EU will exist in name only because of the far right parties seizing on unfettered immigration, rightly or wrongly. Whatever your views on that, who pays for hundreds of thousands of the largely unskilled and poorly educated arrivals ? Which is why, with our contributions ending they need to keep a tight grip on everyone else.

But it will be liking pissing into the wind.


The EU has no say in non EU immigration. Free movement between EU member states is not classed as immigration. There's also no obligation to take refugees. And unless you're a member of Schengen, anyone without EU documentation can be turned away.

The point here is not one of for or against EU membership, it's one of economics. The EEA provides stability and continuity. The WTO provides utter uncertainty, a guaranteed economic downturn, and a 50 year wait to see IF it will turn out okay (though in the meantime we are going to be ever so slightly fucked).

Lying, conniving, hypocritical fucktards like Rees-Mogg promised we'd get a deal like Norway. The fucking idiot is even on film espousing his support for a second referendum.
Now he wants to gamble with my fucking livelihood while he stashes his own loot in Dublin, just in case it goes tits up? He can fuck right off, and so can any cunt who agrees with him. :D
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mkhammer
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Re: British politics.

Postby mkhammer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:01 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:My word...

Liam Fox then: 'it will be the easiest deal ever'
Liam Fox now: 'Odds are we'll end up with no deal'.
Cunt.


You have to remember though, it's in the EU's best interests to see us crash and burn to an extent, because there will be eyes on how we get on post-EU, and any success could be impetus for other countries to do the same.

If everything went swimmingly, and it was all roses then what's to stop other countries saying "wait a minute, why are we paying into this club when we can get on just as well outside it?"


They def don't want us to crash and burn..as we won't..they still need us affluent, as still need our
trade,deal or no deal....
But the little clique that run the EU are making it unnecessarily awkward as some kinda deterrent
to other members who are looking at moving on and joining the modern world of free trade etc,
and not be tied down by a bunch of blithering old fashioned dictating bureaucrats..

Strikes me a No Deal..maybe is the easiest option......I'm beginning to really see it now,why not..
Don't see why we should worry....lets take control and crack on...
We've tried to negotiate..but these Euro Bods and our shit stirring remainers are preventing it
so....F**k em...

The Main reason the average man and women voted leave..was to protect our Borders
and protect us from the the mass migration that Germany was welcoming into the EU
on our fucking behalf.....(Economics of it was a distant 2nd 3rd)....
After a while these Economic migrants/(Asylum seekers) get the freedom of movement across the EU..
Not done not on a humanitarian level..but to bolster their economy,their infrastructure can
handle high immigration they need it "At the Moment" ours doesn't need such high levels and
can't handle it, if people can't see that then...well...

You just can't stay in a system where other peoples decisions,Economically or otherwise,
can screw you up....no way..
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Neville Bartos
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:21 pm

mkhammer wrote:
The Main reason the average man and women voted leave..was to protect our Borders
and protect us from the the mass migration that Germany was welcoming into the EU
on our fucking behalf.....(Economics of it was a distant 2nd 3rd)....
After a while these Economic migrants/(Asylum seekers) get the freedom of movement across the EU..
Not done not on a humanitarian level..but to bolster their economy,their infrastructure can
handle high immigration they need it "At the Moment" ours doesn't need such high levels and
can't handle it, if people can't see that then...well...



No offence mate, but that's just plain wrong.
According to polls the main reasons behind a leave vote were political and judicial autonomy.

No EU member state is legally obliged to allow any non EU citizens to enter that state. Irrespective of how many refugees Germany allows in.
Refugees seeking asylum are not entitled to citizenship anywhere in the EU. And as the UK is not a member of Schengen, any non EU national attempting to enter the UK, even from an EU country, is subject to border control and customs. In fact even people from EU member states are subject to those things.

This is exactly the kind of non factual fear mongering I find exasperating.
Almost as exasperating as I find people holding the EU to account for unfettered immigration, but letting our own government off the hook for allowing just as many non EU immigrants in. If we didn't need em, why did the Tories let them all in?
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FlatCapDave
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Re: British politics.

Postby FlatCapDave » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:47 am

Neville Bartos wrote:Free movement between EU member states is not classed as immigration.


Call it "free movement" if you like, but we both know that's nothing more than a technicality. It's immigration.

It would take a momentous fucking argument for anyone to convince me that the whole "freedom of movement" shite is anything other than a ploy by the wealthier nations within this club to gain access to a largely ununionised, cheap workforce from the poorer members in places like Eastern Europe.

Even the most simple-minded fool could see that when the likes of Bulgaria and Romania were brought into the fold we'd see an uneven surge of immigration (or freedom of movement if you like) from these nations.

It's a smart move by those in power really, as they gain access to a cheaper job market, driving down wages, and manage to gag most complaints about it as simply being "racist."

Neville Bartos wrote:There's also no obligation to take refugees. And unless you're a member of Schengen, anyone without EU documentation can be turned away.


There's no obligation, but it's heavily fucking frowned upon if you don't play the game, isn't it? We've seen the shite that gets slung at governments who don't "take their fair share."

Neville Bartos wrote:Lying, conniving, hypocritical fucktards like Rees-Mogg promised we'd get a deal like Norway. The fucking idiot is even on film espousing his support for a second referendum.
Now he wants to gamble with my fucking livelihood while he stashes his own loot in Dublin, just in case it goes tits up? He can fuck right off, and so can any cunt who agrees with him. :D


Well, these dolts who are carrying out negotiations are simply representatives of the democratically elected government of this piece of rock we call home, so it's really those who voted the cunts in who are to blame.

Neville Bartos wrote:According to polls the main reasons behind a leave vote were political and judicial autonomy.


You think the majority of people who voted to leave the EU did so because of "judicial autonomy?"

Christ mate, come on. Polls are a pile of shite. They told us that Trump wouldn't win the election, didn't they? The pollsters have constantly been made to look silly of late.

Neville Bartos wrote:No EU member state is legally obliged to allow any non EU citizens to enter that state. Irrespective of how many refugees Germany allows in.


Again, a simplistic way of looking at it. Do you think if the UK said "right, we're taking in absolutely no one" the likes of Merkel would just have shrugged her shoulders and said "ah well, that's how it goes under the rules I guess?"

Of course not. There's political antics that go on mate, you know that. You're being selectively ignorant here.

Neville Bartos wrote:This is exactly the kind of non factual fear mongering I find exasperating.

Almost as exasperating as I find people holding the EU to account for unfettered immigration, but letting our own government off the hook for allowing just as many non EU immigrants in. If we didn't need em, why did the Tories let them all in?


No one is "letting the Tories off the hook" though, are they? The people I know who complain about immigration are constantly banging on about how the Government are at it, and how they're a bunch of wealthy cunts who are playing politics to the benefit of them and their friends.

And we don't "need em," we accept them into the country because they'll work for lower rates of pay for the most part, and aren't overly keen on unionising.

That benefits big business, and at the end of the day it's big business that matters, not the poor sods who are at the bottom of the pile, be they Polish, Pakistani, Romanian or from Dagenham.
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palerider
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Re: British politics.

Postby palerider » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:59 am

The asylum-seeker scenario has been around for decades. But before 2015 it was in such a small number relatively speaking that it was never an issue.

But then, Merkel announced her insane plan. Wir Shaffen Das. We can do this. And close to a million un-vetted young men, which is what the vast majority were, took her up on her invitation. It may have been because she felt guilty about Germany's dark history, it may have been to bolster the workforce with cheap labour in a country with a dwindling birth-rate (they'd already done it with Turkish immigrants), or possibly it stemmed from a visit to one of the refugee camps when she met a Syrian child who broke down in tears in front of her, but whichever it was, it opened the gates. And not just Germany. Liberal countries across the EU like Sweden also rallied to the cause.

Ignore the terrorism aspect, although it's fair to say she has blood on her hands, but what happens when the penny drops to these young men, believing that the streets are paved with gold and there'll be homes and jobs a-plenty, bearing in mind that most are in reality unemployable ?

They get frustrated, bored, angry, and are ripe for causing mayhem, as I saw in Gothenburg last month.

And as for African migration, the West's obsession with getting rid of Gadaffi, however well-meant, has proved to be disastrous. There were no slave camps in Libya under him, in fact the Libyan economy was sound, providing jobs for thousands of sub-Saharan Africans with no need to risk their lives on rickety boats.

It is however, what it is. Politicians don't know the answer. The human race is a very generous entity until it starts affecting their welfare. The centre-left press like the Guardian and the Huffington Post will continually print photos of wailing kids and distraught mothers amongst the 95% male admissions. But the continent no longer sings their tune. The latest idea is deportation in the thousands. But the Court of Human Rights run by old men living miles away from a dark face just listens to the appeals, delays the departures, and the influx continues.

The Guardian is perpetually championing the fact that migration is decreasing and it is compared to 2015. But you only have to look at what's happening in Spain to see that for every 100 you manage to deport, 500 are still making it across.

It's fucking madness.

I don't know the answer either. I may be a cunt but I'm not a heartless cunt. Every single one of the migrants will have a reason and a story. And if the EU started spending billions on creating solid infrastructures creating opportunities in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, I'd willingly accept my taxes going up as a result. But I suspect I'd be in the minority.

But what I do know is that what's happening is unsustainable. I didn't vote leave because of trade. I voted leave to control our borders. And if that makes me a racist then fair do's.

And that now, I'm certainly not in the minority across the continent in thinking that the biggest threat to our society is the liberal-thinking farts that nobody ever voted for trying to tell me from their ivory towers in Brussels what's good for me.

And why we need to get the fuck out of Dodge. Which will sink into a hole of it's own making pretty soon in any case.
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mkhammer
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Re: British politics.

Postby mkhammer » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:41 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
mkhammer wrote:
The Main reason the average man and women voted leave..was to protect our Borders
and protect us from the the mass migration that Germany was welcoming into the EU
on our fucking behalf.....(Economics of it was a distant 2nd 3rd)....
After a while these Economic migrants/(Asylum seekers) get the freedom of movement across the EU..
Not done not on a humanitarian level..but to bolster their economy,their infrastructure can
handle high immigration they need it "At the Moment" ours doesn't need such high levels and
can't handle it, if people can't see that then...well...



No offence mate, but that's just plain wrong.
According to polls the main reasons behind a leave vote were political and judicial autonomy.

No EU member state is legally obliged to allow any non EU citizens to enter that state. Irrespective of how many refugees Germany allows in.
Refugees seeking asylum are not entitled to citizenship anywhere in the EU. And as the UK is not a member of Schengen, any non EU national attempting to enter the UK, even from an EU country, is subject to border control and customs. In fact even people from EU member states are subject to those things.

This is exactly the kind of non factual fear mongering I find exasperating.
Almost as exasperating as I find people holding the EU to account for unfettered immigration, but letting our own government off the hook for allowing just as many non EU immigrants in. If we didn't need em, why did the Tories let them all in?



Believe "Polls" all you want mate....I don't....go on what I personally hear see and feel...
not all but some polls are contrived.
The Majority of People I talk to, listen to,watch on the "bloke on the street"interviews..
Various forums and chat rooms via internet,googling around in general etc...The Main Concern
that crops up time and time again, for why they choose to vote leave is the "Immigration topic"
Rightly or wrongly, the fear of the Unknown....how many will come...
The worry of how it affects,Housing,Benefits,Overloading the NHS,Jobs,Schools,the worry of
Eastern European Mafia type Gangs taking over their Cities,Towns and Villages....
How will it affect me/us personally and our Economy etc.
Not Scaremonger mate...I'll leave that to others...just genuine concerns,that people are
worried about....they want some control back if at all possible.
That's the reason we are in a Leave situation..the average man and woman doesn't know
how it will affect business/trade....you just give opinions on that,depending on how much
you care and want to find out...that goes for Politicians as well,anyone that say's this
is the defined outcome of Brexit is talking crap....its an opinion.
The Word Politics in your "Poles" doesn't so much mean the "Whos in power Politics"
more a generalisation I spect.....we have control of our Parliament..well.... :lol: you know
what I mean..

Unless I'm very much mistaken once an Immigrant enters a Foreign country,is accepted,
lives there for a predetermined amount of time it varies across Europe 3-8 years I beleive
you can then apply for citizenship and if accepted be awarded the passport of that country
and all the rights that go with....if in Germany this would make you an EU citizen with
the right of Economic movement if you choose it.

However your right about the short term movement of "Legal Asylum seekers"it's the long
term we need to look at,and be aware of,and to be honest there's an awful lot of the
4or5 million Germany alone is welcoming in the near future,that won't be waiting for
legal citizenships before moving on to us and elsewhere.

It's a shit thing to say but Uncontrolled Immigration will bring Economies down,look at Greece
Italy...it a huge burden on them......France and Germany would prob be leaving if they
had a Public Referendum such as ours...says it all..

We have to help Asylum seekers,nobody wants that more than me,but inviting everyone
in is madness....there's other ways..

Gotta say Mate
It does seem your coming at this from a dislike of the Tory Party,first and foremost,as
opposed to a for or against Brexit angle..
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Pennywise
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Re: British politics.

Postby Pennywise » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:42 pm

Sorry MK, my reason for voting out had nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with removing ourselves from a bloated, corrupt, undemocratic power body that seems to have every intention of getting worse.
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FlatCapDave
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Re: British politics.

Postby FlatCapDave » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:26 pm

Pennywise wrote:Sorry MK, my reason for voting out had nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with removing ourselves from a bloated, corrupt, undemocratic power body that seems to have every intention of getting worse.


There's a good chance you're in the minority.
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Re: British politics.

Postby Marco Boogers Boots » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:43 am

Pennywise wrote:Sorry MK, my reason for voting out had nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with removing ourselves from a bloated, corrupt, undemocratic power body that seems to have every intention of getting worse.


I voted remain. Once the referendum was announced I was a certain remainer, but through the campaigns I was swayed quite a bit by leave to the point that on the morning of the vote I wasn't sure which way I was going to go.

I went remain because I thought "better the devil you know". And that really isn't me saying I told you so, or with the benefit of hindsight - I honestly felt at that time that a leave vote would create chaos at a time we could really do without it.

That said, once the result was announced I wasn't particularly upset by it. I pretty much thought "well, fuck me! It should be interesting to see how it goes!".
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