British politics.

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h69
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Re: British politics.

Postby h69 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:10 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
h69 wrote:
I would not be so sure of that as a lot of people have been put off the EU by their behaviour in the negotiations so I would guess we would get the same result again but at the end of the day it is moot now.


What behaviour is that? The EU not agreeing to the government's fantasy Brexit?
Wanting all, or most, of the benefits of being in the EU without actually being in the EU is a wee bit unrealistic. I'm not sure the EU is being entirely unreasonable in not agreeing to that, despite what the Mail and Sun might say.


More the rhetoric that people hear when Juncker actually speaks I think. His wording is poorly chosen for someone tasked with commenting on negotiation.

Dont get me wrong, I am not one of them, I was a Brexit supporter from the start and am still but there are a lot I hear that dont like the noises coming from the EU. That said, I do think that like many remain supporters, you have instantly assumed that people are not watching these people but just reading it in the paper.
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FlatCapDave
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Re: British politics.

Postby FlatCapDave » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:Ha. The government lose a vote in the Lord's, so apparently they're going to hand out peerages to people who will support them and change that L into a W. Don't you love democracy?
This is what happens when your second house is unelected.


How many of the actual decision-makers in the EU are elected by the people?

It's also widely ignored or dismissed for some reason, the kind of shit that the President of the European Commission comes away with.

On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011; "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

On EU monetary policy; "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty; “Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

On the introduction of the euro; "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

"There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties, one cannot exit the euro without leaving the EU."

I find it absolutely fucking hilarious that we see those on the left of British politics walking around waving the flag of this undemocratic nonsense that we call the EU.

The simple-minded logic of "Farage and Boris want to leave, that means we should stay!" is to blame. It's possible to despise the EU and what it represents without voting for UKIP and wearing a knotted fucking hankie on your dome when you're on holiday.

I sincerely hope that by Britain leaving we'll see others do the same, so we can bin this nonsense and come up with a European agreement that isn't run by unelected bureaucrats with no link to representative democracy.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:30 am

FlatCapDave wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:Ha. The government lose a vote in the Lord's, so apparently they're going to hand out peerages to people who will support them and change that L into a W. Don't you love democracy?
This is what happens when your second house is unelected.


How many of the actual decision-makers in the EU are elected by the people?

It's also widely ignored or dismissed for some reason, the kind of shit that the President of the European Commission comes away with.

On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011; "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

On EU monetary policy; "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty; “Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

On the introduction of the euro; "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

"There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties, one cannot exit the euro without leaving the EU."

I find it absolutely fucking hilarious that we see those on the left of British politics walking around waving the flag of this undemocratic nonsense that we call the EU.

The simple-minded logic of "Farage and Boris want to leave, that means we should stay!" is to blame. It's possible to despise the EU and what it represents without voting for UKIP and wearing a knotted fucking hankie on your dome when you're on holiday.

I sincerely hope that by Britain leaving we'll see others do the same, so we can bin this nonsense and come up with a European agreement that isn't run by unelected bureaucrats with no link to representative democracy.



I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, Dave.
The problem we, and most other nations, have is that no-one is willing to be honest.
We get horseshit from one side of the debate -- whatever it may be -- and in response horseshit from the other. It does my box in.

How is anyone supposed to make a reasonable fist of deciding on an argument, especially something complex and far reaching, if all your sources, both pro and con, are corrupt?

We know people like Johnson, Corbyn, May and fuck knows who else are playing politics.
Johnson is on camera arguing to remain, May was supposedly a remainer, and Corbyn is so useless he's not even committed enough to be openly hypocritical.
Since when has 'we're opposed to whatever the other side are doing' been a reasonable policy?

So, we can't trust politicians, we can't trust the news media, and we can't trust business. Because they all have an agenda that's got nothing, literally nothing, that has anything to do with your, or my, best interests.

The left thing is another red herring. Conservatives were split 60/40 leave/remain. Labour pretty much the reverse. So, 4 out of 10 lefties wanted to leave and 4 out of 10 righties wanted to remain. Not exactly split down the middle, but far and gone from predictable.

We had a deal, it was called the EEC. It was all about breaking down trade barriers and helping emerging economies. Then the politicians we elected fucked it all up. Things like the European Commission don't just appear out of thin air. Some elected dipshit somewhere made a decision, and some other elected people agreed with it... and whoosh the European Commission.

The sad thing in all this is that people who were denied the chance to make an informed opinion will end up paying the price.
Whilst the people who control the information, who push an agenda, will sail on regardless. And that's on either side of the debate.
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mkhammer
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Re: British politics.

Postby mkhammer » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:54 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
FlatCapDave wrote:
How many of the actual decision-makers in the EU are elected by the people?

It's also widely ignored or dismissed for some reason, the kind of shit that the President of the European Commission comes away with.

On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011; "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

On EU monetary policy; "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty; “Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

On the introduction of the euro; "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

"There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties, one cannot exit the euro without leaving the EU."

I find it absolutely fucking hilarious that we see those on the left of British politics walking around waving the flag of this undemocratic nonsense that we call the EU.

The simple-minded logic of "Farage and Boris want to leave, that means we should stay!" is to blame. It's possible to despise the EU and what it represents without voting for UKIP and wearing a knotted fucking hankie on your dome when you're on holiday.

I sincerely hope that by Britain leaving we'll see others do the same, so we can bin this nonsense and come up with a European agreement that isn't run by unelected bureaucrats with no link to representative democracy.



I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, Dave.
The problem we, and most other nations, have is that no-one is willing to be honest.
We get horseshit from one side of the debate -- whatever it may be -- and in response horseshit from the other. It does my box in.

How is anyone supposed to make a reasonable fist of deciding on an argument, especially something complex and far reaching, if all your sources, both pro and con, are corrupt?

We know people like Johnson, Corbyn, May and fuck knows who else are playing politics.
Johnson is on camera arguing to remain, May was supposedly a remainer, and Corbyn is so useless he's not even committed enough to be openly hypocritical.
Since when has 'we're opposed to whatever the other side are doing' been a reasonable policy?

So, we can't trust politicians, we can't trust the news media, and we can't trust business. Because they all have an agenda that's got nothing, literally nothing, that has anything to do with your, or my, best interests.

The left thing is another red herring. Conservatives were split 60/40 leave/remain. Labour pretty much the reverse. So, 4 out of 10 lefties wanted to leave and 4 out of 10 righties wanted to remain. Not exactly split down the middle, but far and gone from predictable.

We had a deal, it was called the EEC. It was all about breaking down trade barriers and helping emerging economies. Then the politicians we elected fucked it all up. Things like the European Commission don't just appear out of thin air. Some elected dipshit somewhere made a decision, and some other elected people agreed with it... and whoosh the European Commission.

The sad thing in all this is that people who were denied the chance to make an informed opinion will end up paying the price.
Whilst the people who control the information, who push an agenda, will sail on regardless. And that's on either side of the debate.



Nothing wrong with people arguing and disagreeing mate.....the art is (if your interested in
the debate/discussion)...listen.take in what you can....forget the "Left and Right" of the
politics of it.......(we all know the Tories could come up with a plan to make us all Millionaires
while bringing about World Peace.....and there would be a whole heap of 19th century
"Rich Haters"...voting against it.. :i am genuinely amused: )
Go off,have a think,do your own research,interweb,whatever and make your own mind up..
No one is forcing you,me, anyone to believe politicians,from either camp.

If you don't trust our politicians and I do understand ,you can still be involved,in the
decision making.....

People seem to make everything "Left or Right"..........ITS NOT.......
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Ron Manager
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Re: British politics.

Postby Ron Manager » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:42 am

My daughter is off to London today for an anti-Brexit march. Speakers include Gina Miller inevitably, Anna Soubry, Vince Cable and oddly, Tony Robinson. She told me there'd be 10,000 there and they hope to get Brexit reversed.

There's as much chance of that as West Ham winning the league next season. I hope she has a nice day in the sun but like a lot of people who feel strongly about something but lose, they can't accept it. I told her it was like her boyfriend giving her the elbow but then she started stalking him.

I voted for Brexit actually simply because I'm not political and wasn't sure what the repercussions would be. I'm still not but would now vote leave in the remote scenario of a second referendum.

I've also told her to be careful as I believe there are counter-marches by some hard right groups. IF it was decided to have a second referendum, there'd be blood on the streets.

I just wish the government would now get on with it. The masses have voted. It was close but democracy must rule. The nonsense going on between the House of Commons and the House of Lords has been an embarrassment.
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Oziron
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Re: British politics.

Postby Oziron » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:06 am

mkhammer wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, Dave.
The problem we, and most other nations, have is that no-one is willing to be honest.
We get horseshit from one side of the debate -- whatever it may be -- and in response horseshit from the other. It does my box in.

How is anyone supposed to make a reasonable fist of deciding on an argument, especially something complex and far reaching, if all your sources, both pro and con, are corrupt?

We know people like Johnson, Corbyn, May and fuck knows who else are playing politics.
Johnson is on camera arguing to remain, May was supposedly a remainer, and Corbyn is so useless he's not even committed enough to be openly hypocritical.
Since when has 'we're opposed to whatever the other side are doing' been a reasonable policy?

So, we can't trust politicians, we can't trust the news media, and we can't trust business. Because they all have an agenda that's got nothing, literally nothing, that has anything to do with your, or my, best interests.

The left thing is another red herring. Conservatives were split 60/40 leave/remain. Labour pretty much the reverse. So, 4 out of 10 lefties wanted to leave and 4 out of 10 righties wanted to remain. Not exactly split down the middle, but far and gone from predictable.

We had a deal, it was called the EEC. It was all about breaking down trade barriers and helping emerging economies. Then the politicians we elected fucked it all up. Things like the European Commission don't just appear out of thin air. Some elected dipshit somewhere made a decision, and some other elected people agreed with it... and whoosh the European Commission.

The sad thing in all this is that people who were denied the chance to make an informed opinion will end up paying the price.
Whilst the people who control the information, who push an agenda, will sail on regardless. And that's on either side of the debate.



Nothing wrong with people arguing and disagreeing mate.....the art is (if your interested in
the debate/discussion)...listen.take in what you can....f.

Sorry couldn't resist... ;)

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FlatCapDave
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Re: British politics.

Postby FlatCapDave » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:09 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, Dave.
The problem we, and most other nations, have is that no-one is willing to be honest.
We get horseshit from one side of the debate -- whatever it may be -- and in response horseshit from the other. It does my box in.

How is anyone supposed to make a reasonable fist of deciding on an argument, especially something complex and far reaching, if all your sources, both pro and con, are corrupt?

We know people like Johnson, Corbyn, May and fuck knows who else are playing politics.
Johnson is on camera arguing to remain, May was supposedly a remainer, and Corbyn is so useless he's not even committed enough to be openly hypocritical.
Since when has 'we're opposed to whatever the other side are doing' been a reasonable policy?

So, we can't trust politicians, we can't trust the news media, and we can't trust business. Because they all have an agenda that's got nothing, literally nothing, that has anything to do with your, or my, best interests.

The left thing is another red herring. Conservatives were split 60/40 leave/remain. Labour pretty much the reverse. So, 4 out of 10 lefties wanted to leave and 4 out of 10 righties wanted to remain. Not exactly split down the middle, but far and gone from predictable.

We had a deal, it was called the EEC. It was all about breaking down trade barriers and helping emerging economies. Then the politicians we elected fucked it all up. Things like the European Commission don't just appear out of thin air. Some elected dipshit somewhere made a decision, and some other elected people agreed with it... and whoosh the European Commission.

The sad thing in all this is that people who were denied the chance to make an informed opinion will end up paying the price.
Whilst the people who control the information, who push an agenda, will sail on regardless. And that's on either side of the debate.


Here's the thing, do you think that we've ever really been properly informed before a vote? All politicians spout nonsense, and we always vote for someone at an election who backtracks on what they said they'd do, so why is this any different?

I'll tell you why it's different, it's different because the upper-middle classes think they've been fucked over, that's why.

I'm not debating how we came to have the EU in its current form, I'm talking about how it's now being portrayed as the bastion of decent society while those underclass types who voted to leave obviously don't know what they're talking about.

The bottom line is that the great unwashed have spoken, and as much as the centre-left and their Guardian-reading chums don't like it, that's how it goes.

If the result had went the other way and those who voted to leave had lost, do you think their cries would be taken seriously by the remain crowd? Of course not.

And another thing, this stupid fucking idea of negotiating a deal and then putting it to the public vote? How stupid is that?

Does anyone think that the EU are going to be prepared to sit down and negotiate seriously if they know that the UK Government have to present what they get to the public?

The EU negotiators will be saying "give them a pile of shit, the people will vote against it and they'll have to stay, job done"
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Neville Bartos
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:30 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:
Here's the thing, do you think that we've ever really been properly informed before a vote? All politicians spout nonsense, and we always vote for someone at an election who backtracks on what they said they'd do, so why is this any different?

I'll tell you why it's different, it's different because the upper-middle classes think they've been fucked over, that's why.

I'm not debating how we came to have the EU in its current form, I'm talking about how it's now being portrayed as the bastion of decent society while those underclass types who voted to leave obviously don't know what they're talking about.

The bottom line is that the great unwashed have spoken, and as much as the centre-left and their Guardian-reading chums don't like it, that's how it goes.

If the result had went the other way and those who voted to leave had lost, do you think their cries would be taken seriously by the remain crowd? Of course not.

And another thing, this stupid fucking idea of negotiating a deal and then putting it to the public vote? How stupid is that?

Does anyone think that the EU are going to be prepared to sit down and negotiate seriously if they know that the UK Government have to present what they get to the public?

The EU negotiators will be saying "give them a pile of shit, the people will vote against it and they'll have to stay, job done"


That's true to a degree, mate, but this particular vote was unprecedented in a couple ways.
Firstly, there was no responsibility.
We had people leading both sides of the debate who could say whatever they liked because no-one was actually responsible for delivering on their promises.

Johnson, Gove, Redwood, could all give us the best case scenario, but none of them were in a position to have to follow through, on anything.

So what we have are one set of people laying out quite a specific argument for leave. And a completely different set of people negotiating their own, different, idea of what Brexit should be.

Secondly, there was no clear idea put forward in the actual question.
We are TOLD that we voted to leave the EU, and that means we voted NOT to get a deal like Norway. But Johnson, Redwood, Farage and anyone else leading the leave campaign cited Norway as the example of what Brexit would ideally deliver.
Trouble is it's Davis and May doing the negotiating.

So, it's not backtracking, it's not even lying. It's one set of people promising one thing, then a completely different set of people delivering something else.

I don't see the EU as being portrayed as a bastion of decency. A bastion of economic stability, perhaps.
And since more Conservatives -- traditional party of the upwardly mobile middle-classes -- voted leave than Labour -- home of the underclasses -- I don't see this as a masses against the classes issue, at all.

Oh, I think Farage would be banging his drum about how nearly half of the public wanted to leave and, how that deserved some concessions, don't you?
Just look at the Scottish independence vote. That was a much clearer result and the SNP haven't stopped looking for an excuse to have a second 'once in a generation' vote since.

Do you know what's more stupid than voting on a deal after it's been negotiated? Voting on one that hasn't even been thought about, let alone planned, researched, costed and debated.

The EU and the government do have that idea of giving us a shit deal in common I suppose.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:44 pm

h69 wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
What behaviour is that? The EU not agreeing to the government's fantasy Brexit?
Wanting all, or most, of the benefits of being in the EU without actually being in the EU is a wee bit unrealistic. I'm not sure the EU is being entirely unreasonable in not agreeing to that, despite what the Mail and Sun might say.


More the rhetoric that people hear when Juncker actually speaks I think. His wording is poorly chosen for someone tasked with commenting on negotiation.

Dont get me wrong, I am not one of them, I was a Brexit supporter from the start and am still but there are a lot I hear that dont like the noises coming from the EU. That said, I do think that like many remain supporters, you have instantly assumed that people are not watching these people but just reading it in the paper.


I think it's safe to assume a lot of voters of all persuasions get their news from papers, TV and social media.
I'd be amazed if a large percentage of people were googling Juncker, reading speeches, quotes, or watching clips of him on Youtube.
In fact one in four people couldn't even be bothered to vote.
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Re: British politics.

Postby hammerwell75 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:57 pm

Ron Manager wrote:
I voted for Brexit actually simply because I'm not political and wasn't sure what the repercussions would be. I'm still not but would now vote leave in the remote scenario of a second referendum.



I just wish the government would now get on with it. The masses have voted. It was close but democracy must rule .




100% Agree with both statement's , How the hell can anyone honestly say what it will be like once we leave ??

I wish that the Government would of thought ahead of the vote and set up a group of MPs from both leave and remain to of worked closely together to get the best deaĺ for both sides . Instead they have just done their upmost to scaremonger the people in the hope that the decision would be reversed or some how forgotten about.

The trouble is , there are too many MPs who have a vested interest within the EU and are trying their up most to stall / to get the best deal for themselves & their business friends , party coffers , rather than the British people .

How can the likes of Threasa May & David Davies, who oth wanted to remain in the EU , be the best people to lead us out of it and be trusted to get us the best deal is beyond me , but I guess either way we are gunna be screwed by these politicians.

It's time the British people started growing a back bone and start demanding more from our politicians and started uniting to build Britain Great again . We are leaving the EU so lets just get on with it , we survived before the EU and we will continue to survive and prosper long after leaving it ....



BTW , I voted to leave and I know exactly what I was thinking when I put my vote in, I ddidn't need the big bus ,endless leaflets posted , and the BBC swaying me to vote the other way , I already had my reasons for my vote .
My only regret was the fact we didnt get the chance to vote in certain people who would of taken care of the negotiations .
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