Neville Bartos wrote:I definitely agree that European political, monetary and social union is something that doesn't benefit everyone.
You can point to any number of negatives: the Greek and Spanish economies, the rise of political populism and far right ideology throughout Europe, mass population migrations from poorer EU states, etc.
There were some positives however. An open European market encourages foreign investment. Companies like Airbus and Nissan don't issue warnings on ideological grounds.
The positives you mention mostly benefited the people who run those companies, and their shareholders though. I know we live in a world now where the average Joe considers it a privilege that companies are willing to let them work for shite pay, but for me, the negatives of the EU far outweigh the positives.
As someone who lives in Spain, I see it every single day, and I'm constantly reminded just how the UK dodged a bullet by not joining the Euro.
Neville Bartos wrote:And contrary to what you write it won't be wealthy people who get in a strop or suffer.
We've seen it already, they take citizenship elsewhere in Europe, or just move their companies and investments.
That's going on anyway, mate. You don't think these companies would piss off as soon as some other country, such as Malta, for example, offers them a more attractive tax situation?
If we approach situations such as this with the fear that the big money men are going to up sticks and take their money away then we'd be as well just chucking the lot of it and bending over entirely.
Neville Bartos wrote:It must be a truly liberating thing to be able to follow through on an ideological principle without having to suffer any of the negative consequences.
As I said, the working classes have been suffering, and are going to continue to suffer anyway. So why not suffer with our heads held that little bit higher, knowing that we didn't roll over in fear of "big business" getting cross with us?
Neville Bartos wrote:As for a PM who stands up to big business. Now that is a fantasy. You don't bite the hand that feeds.
What if that hand that feeds is taking the food next door though? What then? It's a two-way street as I said. If those companies want to bugger off to Ireland or somewhere, then they should be told that they will have to pay a price for that.
Just like we're being told we will have to pay a price for getting the bigwigs angry.
Neville Bartos wrote:There's no doubt we'll suffer under Brexit, that's inevitable. But it's not actually about that. It's about why this government seem determined to get the worst deal possible.
I'd have thought it would be blatantly clear? It's obvious to anyone with eyeballs that this Government doesn't actually want Brexit. Theresa May didn't want it, did she? This is a headache that they probably could do without.
As you say, all this process is doing is simply upsetting the people that fund their fucking party come election time.
I still believe that this whole thing won't happen. They're going to fuck it up royally and then somehow the process will get overturned, and the UK will get slapped back into line.
Neville Bartos wrote:Some people might be happy to sacrifice their jobs, businesses or an extra £2k a year at the alter of a Murdoch and Dacre approved ideology, but I'm not.
And that's the sad thing mate. That people are being forced to choose between losing a few quid or allowing the wheels of big business and cronyism to trample democratic process and the ability to hold leaders accountable.
In decades to come, when we no doubt have a central EU army and most of our policies and decisions are carried out by people whose names have never appeared on a ballot paper we can tell our grandkids that despite all that, we managed to cling to our jobs for another few years and saved a couple of grand a year.
This is a key point in history, mate. This is a testing of the waters of sorts, in an organisation in the EU that has been put in place to see if the population of Europe is open to the idea of unelected leaders calling the shots.
Juncker admits as much when he says;"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
That one statement sums up the entire EU as an organisation.
I laugh when I hear so-called educated liberals in this country blast the House of Lords, yet they fail to realise the decision-making making process within the EU is run entirely like the House of Lords.
The EU democratic process is like the UK system in reverse, where elected officials don't have the power to actually create legislation, they simply get to amend it when it gets kicked along to them.Juncker has been President of the Euro Group since 2005, has served two six-month terms as President of the European Council, in 1997 and 2005, and has been the President of the European Commission since 1 November 2014.
All without his name ever appearing on a ballot that required a cross next to his name from the people of Europe.
It honestly astounds me that this fact matters not a fucking jot to most of the so-called educated middle classes.
But then again, when we have Boris and Nige making statements that can be technically picked apart who has the time I guess?
Dave, the economic rewards aren't really disputable. The EEC was good for Britain.
Being part of a trading block is a tremendous economic tool.
The issue most people voted (leave) on was one of political and judicial sovereignty.
And workers have benefitted. I remember years and years ago, when I was a lad, my mum worked as a cleaner part time. 5 evenings a week for a couple of hours -- in fact it was so long ago she was paid in cash, £15 a week.
No holiday and if you wanted an evening off you didn't get paid. It was European employment law that gave part time workers the right to paid holiday.
As for the Euro. Ridiculous idea. The hard ECU was a fundamentally flawed concept, and the Euro doubled down on that.
It had naff all to do with economics and everything to do with integration. For Germany it's a drag, for Greece a disaster. And as far as I can see the only thing it's good for is not having to constantly visit a BdC if you're touring around Europe.
We already bend over backwards for the money men. Remember announcements of the lowest corporation tax in Europe? Special 'assurances' for Japanese car manufacturers -- which we all know means the British tax payer picking up the bill for any post Brexit tariffs.
I've worked shit jobs before and after the advent of the EU. No difference. In fact some might suggest that workers rights under EU law has done more than any British government to improve the lot of the working classes. Not of course that there still aren't ways and means to exploit people -- zero hours contracts.
The tax thing is separate from manufacturing, which seems to be the main issue.
Google can set up their HQ in Ireland and avoid tax because their business takes place in the ether. I'm sure Nissan would love to do the same, but unfortunately for them they sell a physical product that can be taxed at any point in its journey from production to its new owners driveway.
Google doesn't give a monkeys about Brexit. Though the EU chasing down 'tax avoiding' corporations is certainly giving them and their Irish tax evading enablers a few worries.
I wonder if sovereign Britain will make corporations more accountable?
I don't think people working on the Airbus or Nissan production line are happy to lose their jobs for some horseshit principle.
No-one has to lose their job because of Brexit. If these companies do fuck off it will be because May is playing politics to appease Johnson and Gove.
That's the thing. It's the deal, not Brexit itself that's the issue here. That's something NO-ONE voted on.
Those fuckers try and con everyone into believing the nation voted for THEIR opinion of what Brexit should be. I remember 2 choices, in or out. There were no supplementary choices for 'a deal like Norway' or 'sod a deal, WTO all the way'.
May is all over the place. A remainer, who desperate to cling on to power, went down the hard Brexit path to get Johnson, Gove and Tory Ukippers on side. Managed to completely bollocks that, and a general election, up.
Now she's desperately trying to appease remainers and proponents of a soft Brexit.
It's nothing short of farcical. Who knows what will happen, mate?
The big business thing is a bit of a red herring I believe.
Like it or not the EU is a bureaucracy, and that tends to be less welcoming to the money and advances of corporations.
The EU pursuing Amazon and ordering them to pay the Irish government hundreds of millions of Euros, all whilst the Irish are saying 'no, no, we don't want it', being a perfect example of bureaucracy v democracy.
I quite like that aspect of the bureaucratic process, but there needs to be a balance.
And the EU hell and gone from anything close to balanced.
It's too far removed from the voter. We vote for the people, who in turn vote for the people, who appoint the people who run things. I've literally no idea who my MEP is, or how he/she votes. Mind you I have got a mind like a sieve these days.
But even so, given the power the EU wields, the media seems entirely disinterested in informing the public.
Fundamentally, like most huge cock-ups the EU isn't a bad idea. The problem is ambition has made it rubbish. As it stands now it would work as a purely economic entity. But social and political integration means we get a labour force moving en masse from east to west.
Instead of acting as a positive force to improve the economies and living standards of poorer countries. The EU has robbed them of a good percentage of their labour force, and managed to make right-wing nationalism fashionable again in the west. Not even the Cold War managed that.
Expansionism is a good idea for a purely economic entity. As a political and social entity it's terrible. If you look at the original inner six and outer seven, there'd be little problem with a loose socio-political alliance. But like Father Ted and that ding on the new car he tries to fix, politicians seem incapable of leaving well enough alone.
I'm no fan of partisanship whether it's liberal or otherwise. Anyone willing to overlook the faults of Corbyn or that arch mandarin Juncker in pursuit of Farage or Johnson is a fucking idiot.
As for the Lord's? Given the lack of support for May's Brexit plans you'd think Guardianistas would be more appreciative.
Anyway, mate, I'm sure this car crash will rumble on and on.
Apologies for the length of the reply, but I had nothing better to do.
Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.