British politics.

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Ron Manager
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Re: British politics.

Postby Ron Manager » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:51 am

hammerwell75 wrote:
Ron Manager wrote:
I voted for Brexit actually simply because I'm not political and wasn't sure what the repercussions would be. I'm still not but would now vote leave in the remote scenario of a second referendum.



I just wish the government would now get on with it. The masses have voted. It was close but democracy must rule .




100% Agree with both statement's , How the hell can anyone honestly say what it will be like once we leave ??

I wish that the Government would of thought ahead of the vote and set up a group of MPs from both leave and remain to of worked closely together to get the best deaĺ for both sides . Instead they have just done their upmost to scaremonger the people in the hope that the decision would be reversed or some how forgotten about.

The trouble is , there are too many MPs who have a vested interest within the EU and are trying their up most to stall / to get the best deal for themselves & their business friends , party coffers , rather than the British people .

How can the likes of Threasa May & David Davies, who oth wanted to remain in the EU , be the best people to lead us out of it and be trusted to get us the best deal is beyond me , but I guess either way we are gunna be screwed by these politicians.

It's time the British people started growing a back bone and start demanding more from our politicians and started uniting to build Britain Great again . We are leaving the EU so lets just get on with it , we survived before the EU and we will continue to survive and prosper long after leaving it ....



BTW , I voted to leave and I know exactly what I was thinking when I put my vote in, I ddidn't need the big bus ,endless leaflets posted , and the BBC swaying me to vote the other way , I already had my reasons for my vote .
My only regret was the fact we didnt get the chance to vote in certain people who would of taken care of the negotiations .

I got that wrong. I voted against Brexit 2 years ago. But I'd change now.

I've become bloody annoyed by the bullying from Brussels. A group of non-elected arseholes led by a drunk trying to tell us what's good for us.

Besides, with the way the EU is tearing itself apart over migration, there'll be nothing to exit from next March. I wonder what the 100,000 who went to Westminster yesterday will do then.
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Re: British politics.

Postby FlatCapDave » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:11 am

When it comes to the EU as it currently is I can't wait until the day comes when it collapses in on itself, like some crumbling old house that is well past its sell-by date.

The centralisation of power that it seems hellbent on carrying out is dangerous, and I don't like it. I'm more in favour of decentralised power with local organisations and individuals being held accountable by, and voted for by the people.

Is the UK leaving the EU going to hurt "the markets" and maybe throw a few wealthy pricks with too much money and power into a strop about their businesses? Yeah, and that's just how it goes.

I fully expect a backlash when the people vote to leave an organisation that promotes easier paths and less tariffs and taxation for those with money, not to mention the promotion of cheap labour from developing EU nations, but tough shit.

What we now need is a Prime Minister who makes it clear to these cunts that doing business in the UK is a two-way street. If they want to take their services and money elsewhere then fair play, but don't think you can do so and also have access to the lucrative UK market.

Will it hurt in the short-term? Sure, but we've been told for years that short-term hurt is required, haven't we? Austerity and all that jazz.

Well, this is no different. Just a case of playing the waiting game while we wait on the rest of the European nations to smarten up and ditch the EU like we will.
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:59 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:When it comes to the EU as it currently is I can't wait until the day comes when it collapses in on itself, like some crumbling old house that is well past its sell-by date.

The centralisation of power that it seems hellbent on carrying out is dangerous, and I don't like it. I'm more in favour of decentralised power with local organisations and individuals being held accountable by, and voted for by the people.

Is the UK leaving the EU going to hurt "the markets" and maybe throw a few wealthy pricks with too much money and power into a strop about their businesses? Yeah, and that's just how it goes.

I fully expect a backlash when the people vote to leave an organisation that promotes easier paths and less tariffs and taxation for those with money, not to mention the promotion of cheap labour from developing EU nations, but tough shit.

What we now need is a Prime Minister who makes it clear to these cunts that doing business in the UK is a two-way street. If they want to take their services and money elsewhere then fair play, but don't think you can do so and also have access to the lucrative UK market.

Will it hurt in the short-term? Sure, but we've been told for years that short-term hurt is required, haven't we? Austerity and all that jazz.

Well, this is no different. Just a case of playing the waiting game while we wait on the rest of the European nations to smarten up and ditch the EU like we will.


Some of that seems oversimplified, Dave.

I definitely agree that European political, monetary and social union is something that doesn't benefit everyone.
You can point to any number of negatives: the Greek and Spanish economies, the rise of political populism and far right ideology throughout Europe, mass population migrations from poorer EU states, etc.

There were some positives however. An open European market encourages foreign investment. Companies like Airbus and Nissan don't issue warnings on ideological grounds.

And contrary to what you write it won't be wealthy people who get in a strop or suffer.
We've seen it already, they take citizenship elsewhere in Europe, or just move their companies and investments.

It must be a truly liberating thing to be able to follow through on an ideological principle without having to suffer any of the negative consequences.

As for a PM who stands up to big business. Now that is a fantasy. You don't bite the hand that feeds.
Britain has never supported, or protected its own industries. We have the highest levels of foreign ownership in the western world. We even pay France's state owned power company for our electricity.
We don't invest, we don't protect. It's why Germany has VW, BMW and Mercedes and we have a great big Nissan factory.

There's no doubt we'll suffer under Brexit, that's inevitable. But it's not actually about that. It's about why this government seem determined to get the worst deal possible.
Some people might be happy to sacrifice their jobs, businesses or an extra £2k a year at the alter of a Murdoch and Dacre approved ideology, but I'm not.
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Re: British politics.

Postby FlatCapDave » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:56 am

Neville Bartos wrote:I definitely agree that European political, monetary and social union is something that doesn't benefit everyone.
You can point to any number of negatives: the Greek and Spanish economies, the rise of political populism and far right ideology throughout Europe, mass population migrations from poorer EU states, etc.

There were some positives however. An open European market encourages foreign investment. Companies like Airbus and Nissan don't issue warnings on ideological grounds.


The positives you mention mostly benefited the people who run those companies, and their shareholders though. I know we live in a world now where the average Joe considers it a privilege that companies are willing to let them work for shite pay, but for me, the negatives of the EU far outweigh the positives.

As someone who lives in Spain, I see it every single day, and I'm constantly reminded just how the UK dodged a bullet by not joining the Euro.

Neville Bartos wrote:And contrary to what you write it won't be wealthy people who get in a strop or suffer.
We've seen it already, they take citizenship elsewhere in Europe, or just move their companies and investments.


That's going on anyway, mate. You don't think these companies would piss off as soon as some other country, such as Malta, for example, offers them a more attractive tax situation?

If we approach situations such as this with the fear that the big money men are going to up sticks and take their money away then we'd be as well just chucking the lot of it and bending over entirely.

Neville Bartos wrote:It must be a truly liberating thing to be able to follow through on an ideological principle without having to suffer any of the negative consequences.


As I said, the working classes have been suffering, and are going to continue to suffer anyway. So why not suffer with our heads held that little bit higher, knowing that we didn't roll over in fear of "big business" getting cross with us?

Neville Bartos wrote:As for a PM who stands up to big business. Now that is a fantasy. You don't bite the hand that feeds.


What if that hand that feeds is taking the food next door though? What then? It's a two-way street as I said. If those companies want to bugger off to Ireland or somewhere, then they should be told that they will have to pay a price for that.

Just like we're being told we will have to pay a price for getting the bigwigs angry.

Neville Bartos wrote:There's no doubt we'll suffer under Brexit, that's inevitable. But it's not actually about that. It's about why this government seem determined to get the worst deal possible.


I'd have thought it would be blatantly clear? It's obvious to anyone with eyeballs that this Government doesn't actually want Brexit. Theresa May didn't want it, did she? This is a headache that they probably could do without.

As you say, all this process is doing is simply upsetting the people that fund their fucking party come election time.

I still believe that this whole thing won't happen. They're going to fuck it up royally and then somehow the process will get overturned, and the UK will get slapped back into line.

Neville Bartos wrote:Some people might be happy to sacrifice their jobs, businesses or an extra £2k a year at the alter of a Murdoch and Dacre approved ideology, but I'm not.


And that's the sad thing mate. That people are being forced to choose between losing a few quid or allowing the wheels of big business and cronyism to trample democratic process and the ability to hold leaders accountable.

In decades to come, when we no doubt have a central EU army and most of our policies and decisions are carried out by people whose names have never appeared on a ballot paper we can tell our grandkids that despite all that, we managed to cling to our jobs for another few years and saved a couple of grand a year.

This is a key point in history, mate. This is a testing of the waters of sorts, in an organisation in the EU that has been put in place to see if the population of Europe is open to the idea of unelected leaders calling the shots.

Juncker admits as much when he says;

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

That one statement sums up the entire EU as an organisation.

I laugh when I hear so-called educated liberals in this country blast the House of Lords, yet they fail to realise the decision-making making process within the EU is run entirely like the House of Lords.

The EU democratic process is like the UK system in reverse, where elected officials don't have the power to actually create legislation, they simply get to amend it when it gets kicked along to them.

Juncker has been President of the Euro Group since 2005, has served two six-month terms as President of the European Council, in 1997 and 2005, and has been the President of the European Commission since 1 November 2014.

All without his name ever appearing on a ballot that required a cross next to his name from the people of Europe.


It honestly astounds me that this fact matters not a fucking jot to most of the so-called educated middle classes.

But then again, when we have Boris and Nige making statements that can be technically picked apart who has the time I guess?
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:56 am

FlatCapDave wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:I definitely agree that European political, monetary and social union is something that doesn't benefit everyone.
You can point to any number of negatives: the Greek and Spanish economies, the rise of political populism and far right ideology throughout Europe, mass population migrations from poorer EU states, etc.

There were some positives however. An open European market encourages foreign investment. Companies like Airbus and Nissan don't issue warnings on ideological grounds.


The positives you mention mostly benefited the people who run those companies, and their shareholders though. I know we live in a world now where the average Joe considers it a privilege that companies are willing to let them work for shite pay, but for me, the negatives of the EU far outweigh the positives.

As someone who lives in Spain, I see it every single day, and I'm constantly reminded just how the UK dodged a bullet by not joining the Euro.

Neville Bartos wrote:And contrary to what you write it won't be wealthy people who get in a strop or suffer.
We've seen it already, they take citizenship elsewhere in Europe, or just move their companies and investments.


That's going on anyway, mate. You don't think these companies would piss off as soon as some other country, such as Malta, for example, offers them a more attractive tax situation?

If we approach situations such as this with the fear that the big money men are going to up sticks and take their money away then we'd be as well just chucking the lot of it and bending over entirely.

Neville Bartos wrote:It must be a truly liberating thing to be able to follow through on an ideological principle without having to suffer any of the negative consequences.


As I said, the working classes have been suffering, and are going to continue to suffer anyway. So why not suffer with our heads held that little bit higher, knowing that we didn't roll over in fear of "big business" getting cross with us?

Neville Bartos wrote:As for a PM who stands up to big business. Now that is a fantasy. You don't bite the hand that feeds.


What if that hand that feeds is taking the food next door though? What then? It's a two-way street as I said. If those companies want to bugger off to Ireland or somewhere, then they should be told that they will have to pay a price for that.

Just like we're being told we will have to pay a price for getting the bigwigs angry.

Neville Bartos wrote:There's no doubt we'll suffer under Brexit, that's inevitable. But it's not actually about that. It's about why this government seem determined to get the worst deal possible.


I'd have thought it would be blatantly clear? It's obvious to anyone with eyeballs that this Government doesn't actually want Brexit. Theresa May didn't want it, did she? This is a headache that they probably could do without.

As you say, all this process is doing is simply upsetting the people that fund their fucking party come election time.

I still believe that this whole thing won't happen. They're going to fuck it up royally and then somehow the process will get overturned, and the UK will get slapped back into line.

Neville Bartos wrote:Some people might be happy to sacrifice their jobs, businesses or an extra £2k a year at the alter of a Murdoch and Dacre approved ideology, but I'm not.


And that's the sad thing mate. That people are being forced to choose between losing a few quid or allowing the wheels of big business and cronyism to trample democratic process and the ability to hold leaders accountable.

In decades to come, when we no doubt have a central EU army and most of our policies and decisions are carried out by people whose names have never appeared on a ballot paper we can tell our grandkids that despite all that, we managed to cling to our jobs for another few years and saved a couple of grand a year.

This is a key point in history, mate. This is a testing of the waters of sorts, in an organisation in the EU that has been put in place to see if the population of Europe is open to the idea of unelected leaders calling the shots.

Juncker admits as much when he says;

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

That one statement sums up the entire EU as an organisation.

I laugh when I hear so-called educated liberals in this country blast the House of Lords, yet they fail to realise the decision-making making process within the EU is run entirely like the House of Lords.

The EU democratic process is like the UK system in reverse, where elected officials don't have the power to actually create legislation, they simply get to amend it when it gets kicked along to them.

Juncker has been President of the Euro Group since 2005, has served two six-month terms as President of the European Council, in 1997 and 2005, and has been the President of the European Commission since 1 November 2014.

All without his name ever appearing on a ballot that required a cross next to his name from the people of Europe.


It honestly astounds me that this fact matters not a fucking jot to most of the so-called educated middle classes.

But then again, when we have Boris and Nige making statements that can be technically picked apart who has the time I guess?


Dave, the economic rewards aren't really disputable. The EEC was good for Britain.
Being part of a trading block is a tremendous economic tool.
The issue most people voted (leave) on was one of political and judicial sovereignty.
And workers have benefitted. I remember years and years ago, when I was a lad, my mum worked as a cleaner part time. 5 evenings a week for a couple of hours -- in fact it was so long ago she was paid in cash, £15 a week.
No holiday and if you wanted an evening off you didn't get paid. It was European employment law that gave part time workers the right to paid holiday.

As for the Euro. Ridiculous idea. The hard ECU was a fundamentally flawed concept, and the Euro doubled down on that.
It had naff all to do with economics and everything to do with integration. For Germany it's a drag, for Greece a disaster. And as far as I can see the only thing it's good for is not having to constantly visit a BdC if you're touring around Europe.

We already bend over backwards for the money men. Remember announcements of the lowest corporation tax in Europe? Special 'assurances' for Japanese car manufacturers -- which we all know means the British tax payer picking up the bill for any post Brexit tariffs.

I've worked shit jobs before and after the advent of the EU. No difference. In fact some might suggest that workers rights under EU law has done more than any British government to improve the lot of the working classes. Not of course that there still aren't ways and means to exploit people -- zero hours contracts.

The tax thing is separate from manufacturing, which seems to be the main issue.
Google can set up their HQ in Ireland and avoid tax because their business takes place in the ether. I'm sure Nissan would love to do the same, but unfortunately for them they sell a physical product that can be taxed at any point in its journey from production to its new owners driveway.

Google doesn't give a monkeys about Brexit. Though the EU chasing down 'tax avoiding' corporations is certainly giving them and their Irish tax evading enablers a few worries.
I wonder if sovereign Britain will make corporations more accountable? :lol:

I don't think people working on the Airbus or Nissan production line are happy to lose their jobs for some horseshit principle.
No-one has to lose their job because of Brexit. If these companies do fuck off it will be because May is playing politics to appease Johnson and Gove.

That's the thing. It's the deal, not Brexit itself that's the issue here. That's something NO-ONE voted on.
Those fuckers try and con everyone into believing the nation voted for THEIR opinion of what Brexit should be. I remember 2 choices, in or out. There were no supplementary choices for 'a deal like Norway' or 'sod a deal, WTO all the way'.

May is all over the place. A remainer, who desperate to cling on to power, went down the hard Brexit path to get Johnson, Gove and Tory Ukippers on side. Managed to completely bollocks that, and a general election, up.
Now she's desperately trying to appease remainers and proponents of a soft Brexit.
It's nothing short of farcical. Who knows what will happen, mate?

The big business thing is a bit of a red herring I believe.
Like it or not the EU is a bureaucracy, and that tends to be less welcoming to the money and advances of corporations.
The EU pursuing Amazon and ordering them to pay the Irish government hundreds of millions of Euros, all whilst the Irish are saying 'no, no, we don't want it', being a perfect example of bureaucracy v democracy.

I quite like that aspect of the bureaucratic process, but there needs to be a balance.
And the EU hell and gone from anything close to balanced.
It's too far removed from the voter. We vote for the people, who in turn vote for the people, who appoint the people who run things. I've literally no idea who my MEP is, or how he/she votes. Mind you I have got a mind like a sieve these days.
But even so, given the power the EU wields, the media seems entirely disinterested in informing the public.

Fundamentally, like most huge cock-ups the EU isn't a bad idea. The problem is ambition has made it rubbish. As it stands now it would work as a purely economic entity. But social and political integration means we get a labour force moving en masse from east to west.

Instead of acting as a positive force to improve the economies and living standards of poorer countries. The EU has robbed them of a good percentage of their labour force, and managed to make right-wing nationalism fashionable again in the west. Not even the Cold War managed that.

Expansionism is a good idea for a purely economic entity. As a political and social entity it's terrible. If you look at the original inner six and outer seven, there'd be little problem with a loose socio-political alliance. But like Father Ted and that ding on the new car he tries to fix, politicians seem incapable of leaving well enough alone.

I'm no fan of partisanship whether it's liberal or otherwise. Anyone willing to overlook the faults of Corbyn or that arch mandarin Juncker in pursuit of Farage or Johnson is a fucking idiot.

As for the Lord's? Given the lack of support for May's Brexit plans you'd think Guardianistas would be more appreciative.

Anyway, mate, I'm sure this car crash will rumble on and on.
Apologies for the length of the reply, but I had nothing better to do. :D
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Re: British politics.

Postby Neville Bartos » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:34 am

Can you believe Mrs May has gone all soft Brexit in less than a week.
I'm all for the customs union, but that's the biggest political U-turn since Michael Portillo decided to become human again.
What's next, a Diane Abbot cover version of Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech?
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Re: British politics.

Postby bigfacemike » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:17 am

A big U-Turn followed by David Davis resigning.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: British politics.

Postby Ron Manager » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:57 am

So the Brexit bloke goes. Replaced now by another Brexit bloke.

Does this mean a soft Brexit or a hard Brexit ? Perhaps medium soft or medium hard. Or a general election with Labour winning. But they're not sure either.

Getting bored of it now.
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Re: British politics.

Postby BillyDWhizz » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:35 am

Dominic fucking Raab smh. One cunt out...One cunt in. This government's levels of ineptitude, manipulation and deception are truly staggering. Without doubt the worst government for a 100 years. We no longer live in a democracy, we've been under a kakistocracy for a decade now and it's only going to get a lot, lot worse.
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Re: British politics.

Postby Whiskyman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:36 am

Imo the biggest problem with British politics is the ridiculous "first past the post" voting system. Because of it we have, fundamentally, just two ideologies which can, broadly speaking, be labelled "left" and "right". It doesn't take into account the massive amount of stuff which doesn't fir neatly into either package. I'm by nature a conservative voter but I did vote for Blair's government in 1997 when we saw the biggest and most overwhelming majority ever given to a government in my lifetime. Labour won 418 seats out of 629, or about 66%. But despite this massive mandate more people actually voted for an alternative party. Around 1.3 million more people voted for either the Conservatives or the Lib Dems than voted Labour. How can that, by any stretch of any imagination, be democratic ?

There are so many different views on many different aspects of life that, because there are only 2 parties that matter, people have to support one or the other. As a conservative I vote for the party despite people lurking within it (yes, I'm talking about you Jacob Rees-Mogg) who frankly I wouldn't piss on if they caught fire in front of me, Similarly there are people within the Labour party who I would probably trust to run a bath, which is more than I can say about many politicians who have held office (yes, that's you Boris).

UKIP, which has now obviously died the death, is a great example of the stupidity of the way our system works. UKIP was made up of people from the rabid left, the foaming mouthed little Englanders on the right, and a lot in the middle. Which when you think about it doesn't make a lot of sense. Had UKIP ever formed a government they would all have agreed on a Brexit strategy but could they have agreed on taxation policy, foreign policy, education, defence, policing and the thousands of day to day matters involved with running a country?

One of the fundamentals needed for democracy to work is a credible alternative to the existing government. Imo we don't have that today. We have a conservative government which is managing to tear itself apart over Brexit, a Labour party in waiting which, if ever elected, would lurch so far to the left the world will probably spin off it's axis, and the Lib Dems who would probably pick up dozens of seats by way of protest votes and then spend all year agonising which of the big boys they should prop up.

PR would imo encourage more consensus government and more accurately reflect the views of the majority of voters, many of whom would hate to be referred to as "left" or "right" but tend to be so labelled because, well, you have to be one or the other under the present system, don't you?
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