British politics.

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mkhammer
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Re: British politics.

Post by mkhammer » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:15 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
mkhammer wrote: It can appear that way mate.....but in any negotiation,from buying/selling a car/house
to a piece of tat at a car boot sale..to Brexit......you go in "Hard"....if a guy want £1500 for
his motor you go I'll give you 11,"needs new tyres mate"you know he wont say yes,but that's your
starter..he goes 14.....so it goes....meet in the middle somewhere...

If the Brexit vote had been 70/30 leave......she would/could have gone in hard and pretty much
not lowered our demands to much.....but it was more or less 50/50....so she has to reflect that,
she has in someway appease the Remainers..and the Leavers...not easy.

All well and good sticking to your principles...I'm big on it,but politics is a different kettle of
fish......where what you personally want takes a back seat,to what the voter wants,that makes
a good politician....She's a good example of it.....Basically a Remainer....but doing what she
been asked to do,by the public...

Nah purely platonic Nev.......I'm more of a Jennifer Connelly/Kate Beckinsale....man... :i am genuinely amused:
It's not a negotiation though, mate.
She kicked off with the 'Brexit means Brexit' cobblers. Then, facing imminent failure, pulled a fast one at Chequers and tried to push through a soft Brexit.
Then that gets changed again to suit the Tory Brexiteers.
Now we've got Tory ministers resigning because it's not hard enough, and Tory MPs rebelling because they want frictionless trade with the EU.
And still May is trying to play both sides. There is zero chance she, or anyone else in her party, will come up with a deal that's going to be acceptable to both sides.

And I might not like Anna Soubry, but she was spot fucking on in her little speech yesterday.
Castigating rich, self serving Conservative MPs. It comes to something when Tory backbenchers are doing the opposition's job for them.

Nadine Dorries and Bridget Philipson for me. That Hollywood stuff is far too fanciful. :D
Much like the Public vote.....Parliament was/is split,everyone has their own idea of how
it(brexit) should be.....there's no right or wrong in it,just opinions,surmising what MAY... :lol:
or may not happen....
So to me its not a matter of playing both sides, but finding a compromise,for both sides,if they
don't want to compromise then F**k em.You shouldn't run of in a sulk cos you don't get your
own way......Euro wise I see things the same way as Boris...But Like it or not ,and it
pisses me off...we can't have it our way,not enough backing to go in "Hard",have to accept that...
May has...

Personally for me, I'm Hard Line, We're Leaving ...You Need us more than we need you attitude...
We have the upper hand.....and enter Negotiations with that in mind......but if 50% of my
Parliament were seeing it different,I would have to take that into account,and listen to them..

But I would be sitting back......let the Remainers/softies, cause a No Deal,which is what they're
doing....And go on from there....Don't believe the scaremongering....We Fail,Collapse, so does the EU,
Euro Bods know it as well..........shame some of our MPs don't....

This is what happens when you have a Party in opposition....thats main aim is to bring
a Government down......they concentrate on that,and bang on about it,instead of putting
it to one side ,and doing what is best for the country when an International problem comes
along.
The Majority of Tories supporting May....in her Compromise,whether its what they want or not,
but the other side just see a chance to bring her down...and vote accordingly,not for
what they should be voting for...but that's the Labour Party for you.....
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Re: British politics.

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:32 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
It's not a negotiation though, mate.
She kicked off with the 'Brexit means Brexit' cobblers. Then, facing imminent failure, pulled a fast one at Chequers and tried to push through a soft Brexit.
Then that gets changed again to suit the Tory Brexiteers.
Now we've got Tory ministers resigning because it's not hard enough, and Tory MPs rebelling because they want frictionless trade with the EU.
And still May is trying to play both sides. There is zero chance she, or anyone else in her party, will come up with a deal that's going to be acceptable to both sides.

And I might not like Anna Soubry, but she was spot fucking on in her little speech yesterday.
Castigating rich, self serving Conservative MPs. It comes to something when Tory backbenchers are doing the opposition's job for them.

Nadine Dorries and Bridget Philipson for me. That Hollywood stuff is far too fanciful. :D
Much like the Public vote.....Parliament was/is split,everyone has their own idea of how
it(brexit) should be.....there's no right or wrong in it,just opinions,surmising what MAY... :i am genuinely amused:
or may not happen....
So to me its not a matter of playing both sides, but finding a compromise,for both sides,if they
don't want to compromise then F**k em.You shouldn't run of in a sulk cos you don't get your
own way......Euro wise I see things the same way as Boris...But Like it or not ,and it
pisses me off...we can't have it our way,not enough backing to go in "Hard",have to accept that...
May has...

Personally for me, I'm Hard Line, We're Leaving ...You Need us more than we need you attitude...
We have the upper hand.....and enter Negotiations with that in mind......but if 50% of my
Parliament were seeing it different,I would have to take that into account,and listen to them..

But I would be sitting back......let the Remainers/softies, cause a No Deal,which is what they're
doing....And go on from there....Don't believe the scaremongering....We Fail,Collapse, so does the EU,
Euro Bods know it as well..........shame some of our MPs don't....

This is what happens when you have a Party in opposition....thats main aim is to bring
a Government down......they concentrate on that,and bang on about it,instead of putting
it to one side ,and doing what is best for the country when an International problem comes
along.
The Majority of Tories supporting May....in her Compromise,whether its what they want or not,
but the other side just see a chance to bring her down...and vote accordingly,not for
what they should be voting for...but that's the Labour Party for you.....
You're describing the fundamental problems.
The government had us vote on a concept rather than a thought out, considered proposal.
And not only is there a split on leave and remain, but on what kind of Brexit should be implemented.
David Davis admitted, after lying, that not only hadn't he studied any Brexit impact assessments, none had been commissioned.

This is stuff that will affect this nation and the people who live and work here for decades.
And we get this directionless, seat of the pants nonsense. It's criminal. I put more thought, time and research into insuring my fucking dog.

Why do you think they need us more? Why do you think we have the upper hand?
There's no evidence for any of those things.
The people who moaned about remainers pointing out the consequences of the worst possible Brexit outcome -- aka Project Fear -- are now actively seeking that worst possible outcome.

Don't you find it perverse that these people POINT to Norway as an example of how Brexit should play out, THEN when they win the vote they fight tooth and nail against a deal like Norway's?

Labour suffer the same problem as the Conservatives on this issue. Brexit, and what kind of Brexit, is an issue of conscience, of ethics, of economics, of principle. It's not something where most are happy to toe the line.
Labour, by not really committing, are staving off the kind of implosive infighting we're seeing with the Conservatives. The problem is that keeping out of the most important political decision in decades helps no-one, and holds no-one to account.
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Re: British politics.

Post by mkhammer » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:06 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
mkhammer wrote:
Much like the Public vote.....Parliament was/is split,everyone has their own idea of how
it(brexit) should be.....there's no right or wrong in it,just opinions,surmising what MAY... :i am genuinely amused:
or may not happen....
So to me its not a matter of playing both sides, but finding a compromise,for both sides,if they
don't want to compromise then F**k em.You shouldn't run of in a sulk cos you don't get your
own way......Euro wise I see things the same way as Boris...But Like it or not ,and it
pisses me off...we can't have it our way,not enough backing to go in "Hard",have to accept that...
May has...

Personally for me, I'm Hard Line, We're Leaving ...You Need us more than we need you attitude...
We have the upper hand.....and enter Negotiations with that in mind......but if 50% of my
Parliament were seeing it different,I would have to take that into account,and listen to them..

But I would be sitting back......let the Remainers/softies, cause a No Deal,which is what they're
doing....And go on from there....Don't believe the scaremongering....We Fail,Collapse, so does the EU,
Euro Bods know it as well..........shame some of our MPs don't....

This is what happens when you have a Party in opposition....thats main aim is to bring
a Government down......they concentrate on that,and bang on about it,instead of putting
it to one side ,and doing what is best for the country when an International problem comes
along.
The Majority of Tories supporting May....in her Compromise,whether its what they want or not,
but the other side just see a chance to bring her down...and vote accordingly,not for
what they should be voting for...but that's the Labour Party for you.....
You're describing the fundamental problems.
The government had us vote on a concept rather than a thought out, considered proposal.
And not only is there a split on leave and remain, but on what kind of Brexit should be implemented.
David Davis admitted, after lying, that not only hadn't he studied any Brexit impact assessments, none had been commissioned.

This is stuff that will affect this nation and the people who live and work here for decades.
And we get this directionless, seat of the pants nonsense. It's criminal. I put more thought, time and research into insuring my fucking dog.

Why do you think they need us more? Why do you think we have the upper hand?
There's no evidence for any of those things.
The people who moaned about remainers pointing out the consequences of the worst possible Brexit outcome -- aka Project Fear -- are now actively seeking that worst possible outcome.

Don't you find it perverse that these people POINT to Norway as an example of how Brexit should play out, THEN when they win the vote they fight tooth and nail against a deal like Norway's?

Labour suffer the same problem as the Conservatives on this issue. Brexit, and what kind of Brexit, is an issue of conscience, of ethics, of economics, of principle. It's not something where most are happy to toe the line.
Labour, by not really committing, are staving off the kind of implosive infighting we're seeing with the Conservatives. The problem is that keeping out of the most important political decision in decades helps no-one, and holds no-one to account.
Problem was...No one actually thought including me that we would vote to leave....
So maybe not enough feasibility studies on the leave outcome were done.

You can't dictate or predict how a Negotiation is going to to go,as our Media and Labour party
would have you think.....especially something as delicate and problematic as this one.

Cameron stated in the Tory Manifesto leading up to his last election....that the public were to
be given the right to have a say in whether we remain in the EU...or if we would prefer to
leave.....he had to go ahead with his promise.....
It's a simple stay or leave vote....but anyone who thought it would be easy,obviously didn't
look into it enough before voting....MPs and the public......I read and heard it would take
at least 7 years to complete all negotiations....trade deals...etc.....which I thought was
ridiculous ....but there it is.....we haven't started yet..... :lol:

You seem to think arguing and disagreeing with each other is wrong....it's not....
Said before Argue...Discuss ...Resolve......Democracy......Day the Tory Party all Agrees with
its leader is the day I'm off.......Vote together....but after the rows and disagreements..

I don't think many Leave Campaigners/voters wanted a Norway deal...maybe some not
the vision most wanted.

Reason I say we have a strong hand is along with Germany and France we are the main
stays Financially of the EU we put the most in...and have worldwide clout...
The EU would not want to alienate us..or hurt us to much...we will still trade with them
more or less the same...they need that trade as well do we....

A lot of people don't wanna believe it...even resent,don't like it but we are a Powerful
country in the World.

Brexit is not a Conservative thing....it's just the party that's in power while it's happening..
The Torys give the People the right to choose....much as they did with Scotland....
you wanna leave the UK.....there's your chance.....choose.....
Then went on to nearly take Scotland in the last Election....because they gave them the right
to choose...
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Re: British politics.

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:33 am

mkhammer wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:
You're describing the fundamental problems.
The government had us vote on a concept rather than a thought out, considered proposal.
And not only is there a split on leave and remain, but on what kind of Brexit should be implemented.
David Davis admitted, after lying, that not only hadn't he studied any Brexit impact assessments, none had been commissioned.

This is stuff that will affect this nation and the people who live and work here for decades.
And we get this directionless, seat of the pants nonsense. It's criminal. I put more thought, time and research into insuring my fucking dog.

Why do you think they need us more? Why do you think we have the upper hand?
There's no evidence for any of those things.
The people who moaned about remainers pointing out the consequences of the worst possible Brexit outcome -- aka Project Fear -- are now actively seeking that worst possible outcome.

Don't you find it perverse that these people POINT to Norway as an example of how Brexit should play out, THEN when they win the vote they fight tooth and nail against a deal like Norway's?

Labour suffer the same problem as the Conservatives on this issue. Brexit, and what kind of Brexit, is an issue of conscience, of ethics, of economics, of principle. It's not something where most are happy to toe the line.
Labour, by not really committing, are staving off the kind of implosive infighting we're seeing with the Conservatives. The problem is that keeping out of the most important political decision in decades helps no-one, and holds no-one to account.
Problem was...No one actually thought including me that we would vote to leave....
So maybe not enough feasibility studies on the leave outcome were done.

You can't dictate or predict how a Negotiation is going to to go,as our Media and Labour party
would have you think.....especially something as delicate and problematic as this one.

Cameron stated in the Tory Manifesto leading up to his last election....that the public were to
be given the right to have a say in whether we remain in the EU...or if we would prefer to
leave.....he had to go ahead with his promise.....
It's a simple stay or leave vote....but anyone who thought it would be easy,obviously didn't
look into it enough before voting....MPs and the public......I read and heard it would take
at least 7 years to complete all negotiations....trade deals...etc.....which I thought was
ridiculous ....but there it is.....we haven't started yet..... :i am genuinely amused:

You seem to think arguing and disagreeing with each other is wrong....it's not....
Said before Argue...Discuss ...Resolve......Democracy......Day the Tory Party all Agrees with
its leader is the day I'm off.......Vote together....but after the rows and disagreements..

I don't think many Leave Campaigners/voters wanted a Norway deal...maybe some not
the vision most wanted.

Reason I say we have a strong hand is along with Germany and France we are the main
stays Financially of the EU we put the most in...and have worldwide clout...
The EU would not want to alienate us..or hurt us to much...we will still trade with them
more or less the same...they need that trade as well do we....

A lot of people don't wanna believe it...even resent,don't like it but we are a Powerful
country in the World.

Brexit is not a Conservative thing....it's just the party that's in power while it's happening..
The Torys give the People the right to choose....much as they did with Scotland....
you wanna leave the UK.....there's your chance.....choose.....
Then went on to nearly take Scotland in the last Election....because they gave them the right
to choose...
Right from the off the predictions were that remain would win by a narrow margin. How on Earth can that be so certain that no plans for leave are even considered?
There's an old saying 'expect the best, plan for the worst'. Seriously, it is staggering.

David Davis in his 2 years as Brexit minister or secretary, or whatever it was, spent 2 hours meeting with the EU negotiator.
The problem being there was nothing to negotiate. The PM, despite flip flopping around like a fish out of water, can't get it done.

Take Soubry and Rees-Mogg -- she was on the radio today saying that he runs the country -- whilst they might be at extreme ends of the debate it seems indicative of where we are. You please one side or the other.

It's not an argument, or a debate, though.
There are no meetings with people sitting around trying to work out the best way forward.
It's a seesaw battle of ideologies, not just for in or out, but what kind of out, and at what cost.

No deal would (not could) cost tens of thousands of jobs.
Some might say that's a small price to pay for British sovereignty, BUT we're talking about a post Brexit deal, not remaining in the EU.
Johnson and his mates want everyone to believe the ESM and the EU are the same thing.

There's not one single good reason, economic or otherwiss, to not join the EEA. Jobs, growth, investment, trade, economic stability. And all available whilst not being in the EU.
Like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein. In short every western European economy that isn't a member of the EU. If not belonging to the EEA was no biggy why would they bother?

The EU seems happy to play Donald Trump's trade war, so why do you imagine WE have the gun hand in any negotiations?
The fact is we don't. The EU knows that as investment in Britain falls it will increase in their member states. It's win/win for them. That's why they can sit back and watch the government imploding and not really give a monkeys.
They know there won't be tariffs or taxes on cars or aeroplane components if there's no deal, because the factories that used to build them in the UK will be in Hungary, or Poland.

And no offence, mate, but the Norway model was trotted out by everyone from Farage, to Banks, to John Redwood. They didn't need most people to want it, they needed enough to win the vote. If they'd been HONEST and said they wanted hard Brexit, no deal, WTO, and that project fear was pretty accurate. They would have lost.

The Conservatives did what they had to do for the sake of political expediency.
The referendum was never about letting the people have a say. It was about UKIP taking Tory votes. It was about David Cameron hanging on to power. It was a gamble that, for him, didn't pay off. That's why no one actually took the time to think it through.

I'm not sure your Scottish analogy works.
After the independence referendum the SNP pretty much swept the board. They still control 35 of the 60 odd seats. How the Tories 13 was almost taking Scotland I do not know.

Anyway, I've got to drive my mum about most of tomorrow so I'm off for some shut eye. You have a good one, mate.
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Re: British politics.

Post by mkhammer » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:59 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
mkhammer wrote:
Problem was...No one actually thought including me that we would vote to leave....
So maybe not enough feasibility studies on the leave outcome were done.

You can't dictate or predict how a Negotiation is going to to go,as our Media and Labour party
would have you think.....especially something as delicate and problematic as this one.

Cameron stated in the Tory Manifesto leading up to his last election....that the public were to
be given the right to have a say in whether we remain in the EU...or if we would prefer to
leave.....he had to go ahead with his promise.....
It's a simple stay or leave vote....but anyone who thought it would be easy,obviously didn't
look into it enough before voting....MPs and the public......I read and heard it would take
at least 7 years to complete all negotiations....trade deals...etc.....which I thought was
ridiculous ....but there it is.....we haven't started yet..... :i am genuinely amused:

You seem to think arguing and disagreeing with each other is wrong....it's not....
Said before Argue...Discuss ...Resolve......Democracy......Day the Tory Party all Agrees with
its leader is the day I'm off.......Vote together....but after the rows and disagreements..

I don't think many Leave Campaigners/voters wanted a Norway deal...maybe some not
the vision most wanted.

Reason I say we have a strong hand is along with Germany and France we are the main
stays Financially of the EU we put the most in...and have worldwide clout...
The EU would not want to alienate us..or hurt us to much...we will still trade with them
more or less the same...they need that trade as well do we....

A lot of people don't wanna believe it...even resent,don't like it but we are a Powerful
country in the World.

Brexit is not a Conservative thing....it's just the party that's in power while it's happening..
The Torys give the People the right to choose....much as they did with Scotland....
you wanna leave the UK.....there's your chance.....choose.....
Then went on to nearly take Scotland in the last Election....because they gave them the right
to choose...
Right from the off the predictions were that remain would win by a narrow margin. How on Earth can that be so certain that no plans for leave are even considered?
There's an old saying 'expect the best, plan for the worst'. Seriously, it is staggering.

David Davis in his 2 years as Brexit minister or secretary, or whatever it was, spent 2 hours meeting with the EU negotiator.
The problem being there was nothing to negotiate. The PM, despite flip flopping around like a fish out of water, can't get it done.

Take Soubry and Rees-Mogg -- she was on the radio today saying that he runs the country -- whilst they might be at extreme ends of the debate it seems indicative of where we are. You please one side or the other.

It's not an argument, or a debate, though.
There are no meetings with people sitting around trying to work out the best way forward.
It's a seesaw battle of ideologies, not just for in or out, but what kind of out, and at what cost.

No deal would (not could) cost tens of thousands of jobs.
Some might say that's a small price to pay for British sovereignty, BUT we're talking about a post Brexit deal, not remaining in the EU.
Johnson and his mates want everyone to believe the ESM and the EU are the same thing.

There's not one single good reason, economic or otherwiss, to not join the EEA. Jobs, growth, investment, trade, economic stability. And all available whilst not being in the EU.
Like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein. In short every western European economy that isn't a member of the EU. If not belonging to the EEA was no biggy why would they bother?

The EU seems happy to play Donald Trump's trade war, so why do you imagine WE have the gun hand in any negotiations?
The fact is we don't. The EU knows that as investment in Britain falls it will increase in their member states. It's win/win for them. That's why they can sit back and watch the government imploding and not really give a monkeys.
They know there won't be tariffs or taxes on cars or aeroplane components if there's no deal, because the factories that used to build them in the UK will be in Hungary, or Poland.

And no offence, mate, but the Norway model was trotted out by everyone from Farage, to Banks, to John Redwood. They didn't need most people to want it, they needed enough to win the vote. If they'd been HONEST and said they wanted hard Brexit, no deal, WTO, and that project fear was pretty accurate. They would have lost.

The Conservatives did what they had to do for the sake of political expediency.
The referendum was never about letting the people have a say. It was about UKIP taking Tory votes. It was about David Cameron hanging on to power. It was a gamble that, for him, didn't pay off. That's why no one actually took the time to think it through.

I'm not sure your Scottish analogy works.
After the independence referendum the SNP pretty much swept the board. They still control 35 of the 60 odd seats. How the Tories 13 was almost taking Scotland I do not know.

Anyway, I've got to drive my mum about most of tomorrow so I'm off for some shut eye. You have a good one, mate.

We might disagree......but that's a good post mate.....like I said nothing wrong in disagreeing,
you get the best end results from it at times...... :D
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Re: British politics.

Post by Neville Bartos » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:11 pm

This is laughable.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 61771.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just to recap, Jacob 'my-wife-got-a-£2.5m-government-grant-to-fix-her-home-and-I've-moved-my-business-interests-to-Ireland' Rees-Mogg says no deal is nothing to worry about, but us little people need to be told the government is going to ensure enough food is stockpiled in case it does happen?

I'd say old project fear were being optimistic if this is the kind of reassurance the government feels is appropriate.
Isn't it lucky the Tories think everyone is going to blame the EU for the clusterfuck they've created. :lol:
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Re: British politics.

Post by terrya1965 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:08 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:This is laughable.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 61771.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just to recap, Jacob 'my-wife-got-a-£2.5m-government-grant-to-fix-her-home-and-I've-moved-my-business-interests-to-Ireland' Rees-Mogg says no deal is nothing to worry about, but us little people need to be told the government is going to ensure enough food is stockpiled in case it does happen?

I'd say old project fear were being optimistic if this is the kind of reassurance the government feels is appropriate.
Isn't it lucky the Tories think everyone is going to blame the EU for the clusterfuck they've created. :i am genuinely amused:
Simple answer really,we don`t leave.
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Re: British politics.

Post by palerider » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:11 am

Leave now. Tell that old pisshead cunt Juncker to fucking do one.

I've got three years worth of Asda all-day breakfasts, peanut butter and Theakston's Old Peculiar in my garage ready for the onslaught.
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Re: British politics.

Post by mkhammer » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:50 am

Neville Bartos wrote:This is laughable.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 61771.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just to recap, Jacob 'my-wife-got-a-£2.5m-government-grant-to-fix-her-home-and-I've-moved-my-business-interests-to-Ireland' Rees-Mogg says no deal is nothing to worry about, but us little people need to be told the government is going to ensure enough food is stockpiled in case it does happen?

I'd say old project fear were being optimistic if this is the kind of reassurance the government feels is appropriate.
Isn't it lucky the Tories think everyone is going to blame the EU for the clusterfuck they've created. :i am genuinely amused:

Again mate....it's the opposition to everything they do,by the opposition,just to undermine them
that is causing the problem.....having to constantly relent to appease.....
You know and I know there's no way 95% of the opposition parties are for a super soft non existent
waste of time Brexit deal.....as their leader wants....
all about voting against the Tories at any cost...they are arseholes,putting their
dislike of the Tories before the needs of the Country...

The Best thing for us........wouldn't go thru Parliament......The Best thing for us is....
Tell These EU bods to toe the line....or we'll F Off and they will get no "Divorce Payment"
They are making things deliberately hard now..in the hope we have another referendum
and somehow vote Remain..... :lol: ....They are in cloud cuckoo land if they believe that..
They are more scared of what will happen......than the scaremongers in the UK.....

ME.....NO DEAL.......F**k em.....They'll back down......
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Re: British politics.

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:59 pm

Mate, you're buying into the propaganda.
The EU have been pretty consistent. It's the government who have been pissing around since the referendum.
As I said before, the EU don't give a monkeys. They know no company will continue to invest in the UK if they have to pay WTO tariffs to import stuff into the EU.
Rees-Mogg even admitted it would be as much as 50 years BEFORE we know IF we'll be any better off. Which basically means we're going to be worse off for decades... unless of course you've moved your business interests to Dublin.
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Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

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