WTF

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Neville Bartos
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Re: WTF

Post by Neville Bartos » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:04 pm

It's understandable that people get upset, outraged and offended by this kind of thing, but it's a dangerous old game criminalising offence.
For a kick off being offended by something is entirely subjective. I dare say none of us were particularly outraged by cartoon depictions of Muhammad, or Jerry Springer the Opera, or any number of incidents religious minorities might define as blasphemy. And that's what this is, a kind of social blasphemy. Are we really saying feelings are sacrosanct?

Blasphemy; the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

I for one, think it's a slippery slope to enshrine hurting someone's feelings in law. A law, I may hasten to add, fundamentalist religious groups would adore.
Like it or not free speech means accepting this kind of stuff. Or we could just start calling the country Airstrip One now.
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mkhammer
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Re: WTF

Post by mkhammer » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:41 am

Neville Bartos wrote:It's understandable that people get upset, outraged and offended by this kind of thing, but it's a dangerous old game criminalising offence.
For a kick off being offended by something is entirely subjective. I dare say none of us were particularly outraged by cartoon depictions of Muhammad, or Jerry Springer the Opera, or any number of incidents religious minorities might define as blasphemy. And that's what this is, a kind of social blasphemy. Are we really saying feelings are sacrosanct?

Blasphemy; the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

I for one, think it's a slippery slope to enshrine hurting someone's feelings in law. A law, I may hasten to add, fundamentalist religious groups would adore.
Like it or not free speech means accepting this kind of stuff. Or we could just start calling the country Airstrip One now.

Thing is Nev...I will defend free speech...it's vital,big thing for me,but whats happening now,
it's not free speech in the way it's meant to be...to put your views forward,to disagree,
but even this has it's limitations....you can't state that you want people to kill people,for
your cause....you can't incite violence....if you accuse somebody of something that can be proven
to be wrong,you can be sued,and so on,so it's not totally "Free" it has it's limitations..

These People feel they are beyond reproach,and are abusing our right of free speech,this to me
was not a Racial/Religious thing,that's not what I'm seeing,it''s a humanitarian thing,
people need to brought to account for things that are at a limit or cross a level
of acceptability.

I agree making it illegal worries me.....but we must be accountable for the things we do,if
against the society we choose to live in.....what next...if they'd had their "Party" in the Grounds
of Grenfell,would that be OK.....taunting and jeering people that had lost their loved ones,
this what they were doing,but just a few miles away,then it was broadcast....
A Kind of Basic Naming and Shaming....is Enough, no Courts,Police etc.
Let the Public know these people,what they're like and it's their choice if they still want
to Employ them...or remain in contact as friends whatever..give them a chance to Explain,
Apologise maybe.

At some point there has to be a limit,to what you can say and do in the name of Free Speech.

This Kinda shit Shit that goes by Free Speech is contributing to making this an uncomfortable
country to live in at times.....it's just going to far now...
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palerider
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Re: WTF

Post by palerider » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:02 am

mkhammer wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:It's understandable that people get upset, outraged and offended by this kind of thing, but it's a dangerous old game criminalising offence.
For a kick off being offended by something is entirely subjective. I dare say none of us were particularly outraged by cartoon depictions of Muhammad, or Jerry Springer the Opera, or any number of incidents religious minorities might define as blasphemy. And that's what this is, a kind of social blasphemy. Are we really saying feelings are sacrosanct?

Blasphemy; the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

I for one, think it's a slippery slope to enshrine hurting someone's feelings in law. A law, I may hasten to add, fundamentalist religious groups would adore.
Like it or not free speech means accepting this kind of stuff. Or we could just start calling the country Airstrip One now.

Thing is Nev...I will defend free speech...it's vital,big thing for me,but whats happening now,
it's not free speech in the way it's meant to be...to put your views forward,to disagree,
but even this has it's limitations....you can't state that you want people to kill people,for
your cause....you can't incite violence....if you accuse somebody of something that can be proven
to be wrong,you can be sued,and so on,so it's not totally "Free" it has it's limitations..

These People feel they are beyond reproach,and are abusing our right of free speech,this to me
was not a Racial/Religious thing,that's not what I'm seeing,it''s a humanitarian thing,
people need to brought to account for things that are at a limit or cross a level
of acceptability.

I agree making it illegal worries me.....but we must be accountable for the things we do,if
against the society we choose to live in.....what next...if they'd had their "Party" in the Grounds
of Grenfell,would that be OK.....taunting and jeering people that had lost their loved ones,
this what they were doing,but just a few miles away,then it was broadcast....
A Kind of Basic Naming and Shaming....is Enough, no Courts,Police etc.
Let the Public know these people,what they're like and it's their choice if they still want
to Employ them...or remain in contact as friends whatever..give them a chance to Explain,
Apologise maybe.

At some point there has to be a limit,to what you can say and do in the name of Free Speech.

This Kinda shit Shit that goes by Free Speech is contributing to making this an uncomfortable
country to live in at times.....it's just going to far now...
It is very subjective.

When I was a screw we had hours of talks on the stuff. The general consensus back then was that it was only offensive if the recipient deemed it so. We had black officers we called Chalky and I was often called a dago because of my ancestry, but it was never an issue.

This sick footage aside though, what really concerns me is the amount of wasted time there is investigating stuff on social media. Formal complaints made because someone's been called fat on facebook. When I had my window smashed by vandals the Old Bill were as invisible afterwards as a Fulham defender.

I got a call from the psychology team to ask if I'd been traumatised though. Why pay for an extra 100 coppers when you can employ some bint out of uni ?
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mkhammer
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Re: WTF

Post by mkhammer » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:19 am

palerider wrote:
mkhammer wrote:

Thing is Nev...I will defend free speech...it's vital,big thing for me,but whats happening now,
it's not free speech in the way it's meant to be...to put your views forward,to disagree,
but even this has it's limitations....you can't state that you want people to kill people,for
your cause....you can't incite violence....if you accuse somebody of something that can be proven
to be wrong,you can be sued,and so on,so it's not totally "Free" it has it's limitations..

These People feel they are beyond reproach,and are abusing our right of free speech,this to me
was not a Racial/Religious thing,that's not what I'm seeing,it''s a humanitarian thing,
people need to brought to account for things that are at a limit or cross a level
of acceptability.

I agree making it illegal worries me.....but we must be accountable for the things we do,if
against the society we choose to live in.....what next...if they'd had their "Party" in the Grounds
of Grenfell,would that be OK.....taunting and jeering people that had lost their loved ones,
this what they were doing,but just a few miles away,then it was broadcast....
A Kind of Basic Naming and Shaming....is Enough, no Courts,Police etc.
Let the Public know these people,what they're like and it's their choice if they still want
to Employ them...or remain in contact as friends whatever..give them a chance to Explain,
Apologise maybe.

At some point there has to be a limit,to what you can say and do in the name of Free Speech.

This Kinda shit Shit that goes by Free Speech is contributing to making this an uncomfortable
country to live in at times.....it's just going to far now...
It is very subjective.

When I was a screw we had hours of talks on the stuff. The general consensus back then was that it was only offensive if the recipient deemed it so. We had black officers we called Chalky and I was often called a dago because of my ancestry, but it was never an issue.

This sick footage aside though, what really concerns me is the amount of wasted time there is investigating stuff on social media. Formal complaints made because someone's been called fat on facebook. When I had my window smashed by vandals the Old Bill were as invisible afterwards as a Fulham defender.

I got a call from the psychology team to ask if I'd been traumatised though. Why pay for an extra 100 coppers when you can employ some bint out of uni ?

Think what I'm trying to say is it's not a Police Prob..for the courts etc....it's a social Prob
for everyone to sort..to say this is crap...it's not right,we don't/won't accept it in our society,
just can't keep saying people have a right...under the Free Speech Banner.....we've fought
hard to have it in our country,and it's being abused by scumbags like this...

You Show this to people 95% go that's wrong,that's disgusting....we can't say it's OK acceptable
to appease the 5% who think it's funny..

Agree Police shouldn't be wasting time on a lot of "Social" problems,we have to do it ourselves,
Media can help by Naming and Shaming.
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redhammer
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Re: WTF

Post by redhammer » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:40 am

IronsForever wrote:Before social media it would have been a tasteless joke that got some laughs because everyone had a drink before on bonfire night. The guy that posted it is a Judas .
This is my take. The 'joke' was in a private garden where you should be comfortable doing just that, having a joke.

Is it tasteless? Generally it is I guess but I take the nick out of Maddie McCann, Oscar Pistorius having no legs and suchlike. It's meant as a joke. A joke means not serious.

I can laugh at a racist joke, doesn't mean I don't like coloured people. I laugh at paedophillia jokes, doesn't mean I like Gary Glitter.

The real idiot is the 'friend' that recorded it and posted it.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: WTF

Post by Neville Bartos » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:12 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Neville Bartos wrote:It's understandable that people get upset, outraged and offended by this kind of thing, but it's a dangerous old game criminalising offence.
For a kick off being offended by something is entirely subjective. I dare say none of us were particularly outraged by cartoon depictions of Muhammad, or Jerry Springer the Opera, or any number of incidents religious minorities might define as blasphemy. And that's what this is, a kind of social blasphemy. Are we really saying feelings are sacrosanct?

Blasphemy; the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

I for one, think it's a slippery slope to enshrine hurting someone's feelings in law. A law, I may hasten to add, fundamentalist religious groups would adore.
Like it or not free speech means accepting this kind of stuff. Or we could just start calling the country Airstrip One now.

Thing is Nev...I will defend free speech...it's vital,big thing for me,but whats happening now,
it's not free speech in the way it's meant to be...to put your views forward,to disagree,
but even this has it's limitations....you can't state that you want people to kill people,for
your cause....you can't incite violence....if you accuse somebody of something that can be proven
to be wrong,you can be sued,and so on,so it's not totally "Free" it has it's limitations..

These People feel they are beyond reproach,and are abusing our right of free speech,this to me
was not a Racial/Religious thing,that's not what I'm seeing,it''s a humanitarian thing,
people need to brought to account for things that are at a limit or cross a level
of acceptability.

I agree making it illegal worries me.....but we must be accountable for the things we do,if
against the society we choose to live in.....what next...if they'd had their "Party" in the Grounds
of Grenfell,would that be OK.....taunting and jeering people that had lost their loved ones,
this what they were doing,but just a few miles away,then it was broadcast....
A Kind of Basic Naming and Shaming....is Enough, no Courts,Police etc.
Let the Public know these people,what they're like and it's their choice if they still want
to Employ them...or remain in contact as friends whatever..give them a chance to Explain,
Apologise maybe.

At some point there has to be a limit,to what you can say and do in the name of Free Speech.

This Kinda shit Shit that goes by Free Speech is contributing to making this an uncomfortable
country to live in at times.....it's just going to far now...
Stating you want to kill people for a cause, depending on context, is already a crime, mate.
And we accept that free speech carries a responsibility, but what these people were doing should not be criminalised.

And whilst we are responsible for our own actions we should be under absolutely no obligation to 'explain or apologise' to the public irrespective of how tasteless or offensive they are.
The problems with this stuff is already evident in society. You have the old bill quoting anti-terror legislation just for the sake of convenience.
Imagine someone overhears you say something, or films you, irrespective of context, and makes a complaint -- with the video evidence. It could fuck your life.

People are already being punished for offensive jokes.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... ods-jailed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In my opinion we're already in the process of becoming a police state.

Oh, and as for the general public being an arbiter of justice. Fuck that. Half the job of the law is to protect the individual from the mob.
I wouldn't trust the public to tie my metaphorical shoe laces. :D
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Herbiehammer
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Re: WTF

Post by Herbiehammer » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:57 pm

Who gets to decide what offensive and whats not?
I didnt find it funny at all but I wasnt offended by it either so I would be on the not guilty side however some are obviously offended by it no idea why as it wasnt a personal attack on anyone, a bad taste joke, not even a funny bad taste joke
So who gets to decide whats "offensive" when its all depends on the listener and of course the interpreter
Its all suggestive

You bunch of cunts especially you..yeah thats right...you
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jameskel
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Re: WTF

Post by jameskel » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:19 am

redhammer wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:40 am
IronsForever wrote:Before social media it would have been a tasteless joke that got some laughs because everyone had a drink before on bonfire night. The guy that posted it is a Judas .
This is my take. The 'joke' was in a private garden where you should be comfortable doing just that, having a joke.

Is it tasteless? Generally it is I guess but I take the nick out of Maddie McCann, Oscar Pistorius having no legs and suchlike. It's meant as a joke. A joke means not serious.

I can laugh at a racist joke, doesn't mean I don't like coloured people. I laugh at paedophillia jokes, doesn't mean I like Gary Glitter.

The real idiot is the 'friend' that recorded it and posted it.

The perfect response
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mkhammer
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Re: WTF

Post by mkhammer » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm

Do some of you guys think then that there should be absolutely no limits to what is said/done in
Public or private, long as you say...it's classified as a "Joke"

And I mean NO LIMITS...you should be able to do and say exactly what you want, when you want
and not be responsible for the outcome or other peoples feelings...

Not being argumentative here...just interested....
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Pennywise
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Re: WTF

Post by Pennywise » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:11 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm
Do some of you guys think then that there should be absolutely no limits to what is said/done in
Public or private, long as you say...it's classified as a "Joke"

And I mean NO LIMITS...you should be able to do and say exactly what you want, when you want
and not be responsible for the outcome or other peoples feelings...

Not being argumentative here...just interested....
There needs to be an example here, but in general terms, yes.

Just to put things in perspective, we have kids being knifed everyday, burglaries happening with no police even bothering to turn up and we're talking about having them arrest people for a fucking joke.

The world really is going mental.
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