The Mogg is circling...

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Neville Bartos
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm

Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
This narrative about the Tories bullshitting to win win Brexit is quite misleading for a number of reasons.

Firstly there were large numbers of Tories who wanted to remain and huge parts of industrial Labour heartland who wanted to leave.

So what was the connection between the leavers on the left and the right? Well it certainly wasn't the £350m per week to the NHS that was on the leavers battle bus and that's the 'huge lie' that is often mentioned.

The vast majority of the leavers voted about migration, it was a cry of frustration and far more about securing our boarders than the NHS or even trade.

So were the voters lied to and has a shit job been done . . . . . . yes. However the unprecedented levels of migration have not gone away and at best peoples concerns lie just underneath the surface.

We are seeing some serious political change across Europe right now and the beginnings of Civil unrest. Whilst I do believe that we are a long way from a populist party in this country the civil unrest part won't be far away if Brexit doesn't deliver migration control.
It wasn't the Tories. I'm pretty sure everyone was free to choose their side of the debate sans the party line.
Farage isn't a Tory, Banks is a Kremlin stooge, and the likes of Johnson and Gove were very clearly in it for themselves. Let's not forget the official government stance was remain.

I would point out that the public were lied to about immigration though. Certainly there was fear mongering about invasions from Bulgaria and Romania -- hands up who has seen one of the thousands of Romany gypsies we were warned about. No? Me neither -- not to mention Turkey. And let's be clear here, Iraq has more chance of full EU membership than Turkey.
We also had Farage with his posters of NON European immigrants. A demographic that only threatens our borders because we elect people who CHOOSE to let them in, en masse.

This idea that leaving the EU will shore up the ramparts is insane. Immigration targets didn't stop the Cameron government allowing vast numbers of non EU immigrants in. So whilst overall immigration is bound to fall, just as many non European migrants will be arriving, maybe even more. The truth about immigration is that it's an issue of supply and demand.

This is all before we get into the insinuation that the UK was part of Schengen. Because certain tabloids want us to believe free movement and open borders are the same thing.

There's so much misinformation being peddled by so many sources. It's hard to sort those with a vested interests from ideologues from actual impartial advice/predictions.

The trouble now is that every side feels hard done by. Remainers point to the lies and potential illegality, and Brexiters the vote.
Clusterfuck is the only word that does it all justice.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Gonzo » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:05 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:14 am
Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
This narrative about the Tories bullshitting to win win Brexit is quite misleading for a number of reasons.

Firstly there were large numbers of Tories who wanted to remain and huge parts of industrial Labour heartland who wanted to leave.

So what was the connection between the leavers on the left and the right? Well it certainly wasn't the £350m per week to the NHS that was on the leavers battle bus and that's the 'huge lie' that is often mentioned.

The vast majority of the leavers voted about migration, it was a cry of frustration and far more about securing our boarders than the NHS or even trade.

So were the voters lied to and has a shit job been done . . . . . . yes. However the unprecedented levels of migration have not gone away and at best peoples concerns lie just underneath the surface.

We are seeing some serious political change across Europe right now and the beginnings of Civil unrest. Whilst I do believe that we are a long way from a populist party in this country the civil unrest part won't be far away if Brexit doesn't deliver migration control.
Agree mate....
What seems to have been forgotten,brushed under the carpet,as doesn't suit anti Government
Remainers...or what ever they are....is the Tory Government spent 10 mill or so,on a Campaign
including leaflets to every house hold.....Urging people to remain.....Pissed me off...
I'm a Tory they had no right to do that,if not for that, the Leave vote would have been a lot
Stronger and I mean A LOT Stronger than it was.....It's the reason why the Tory Leavers in
Parliament are unhappy.....it could/should have been a bit more cut and dried....

But Obviously 65% of constituencies voting leave is not a big enough Majority to satisfy some
MPs and Voters...

The Majority of the Tory Government saw the Probs that might arise and tried to stop a leave vote,
I Personally disagree,and am in the Rees Moog/Boris Leave means Leave Camp..
But just stating Facts....


Side note on the Bus thing.....rightly or wrong said...maybe we could put £350 mill to the NHS
when we Leave..........We Haven't Left yet......So How is it a Lie........
People just following the Media shit instead of working things out for themselves...
When pressed on LBC two weeks ago May said that even with her deal the figure would actually be £380m but as I said that is not really the point.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Gonzo » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:16 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm
Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
This narrative about the Tories bullshitting to win win Brexit is quite misleading for a number of reasons.

Firstly there were large numbers of Tories who wanted to remain and huge parts of industrial Labour heartland who wanted to leave.

So what was the connection between the leavers on the left and the right? Well it certainly wasn't the £350m per week to the NHS that was on the leavers battle bus and that's the 'huge lie' that is often mentioned.

The vast majority of the leavers voted about migration, it was a cry of frustration and far more about securing our boarders than the NHS or even trade.

So were the voters lied to and has a shit job been done . . . . . . yes. However the unprecedented levels of migration have not gone away and at best peoples concerns lie just underneath the surface.

We are seeing some serious political change across Europe right now and the beginnings of Civil unrest. Whilst I do believe that we are a long way from a populist party in this country the civil unrest part won't be far away if Brexit doesn't deliver migration control.
It wasn't the Tories. I'm pretty sure everyone was free to choose their side of the debate sans the party line.
Farage isn't a Tory, Banks is a Kremlin stooge, and the likes of Johnson and Gove were very clearly in it for themselves. Let's not forget the official government stance was remain.

I would point out that the public were lied to about immigration though. Certainly there was fear mongering about invasions from Bulgaria and Romania -- hands up who has seen one of the thousands of Romany gypsies we were warned about. No? Me neither -- not to mention Turkey. And let's be clear here, Iraq has more chance of full EU membership than Turkey.
We also had Farage with his posters of NON European immigrants. A demographic that only threatens our borders because we elect people who CHOOSE to let them in, en masse.

This idea that leaving the EU will shore up the ramparts is insane. Immigration targets didn't stop the Cameron government allowing vast numbers of non EU immigrants in. So whilst overall immigration is bound to fall, just as many non European migrants will be arriving, maybe even more. The truth about immigration is that it's an issue of supply and demand.

This is all before we get into the insinuation that the UK was part of Schengen. Because certain tabloids want us to believe free movement and open borders are the same thing.

There's so much misinformation being peddled by so many sources. It's hard to sort those with a vested interests from ideologues from actual impartial advice/predictions.

The trouble now is that every side feels hard done by. Remainers point to the lies and potential illegality, and Brexiters the vote.
Clusterfuck is the only word that does it all justice.

It wasn't the Romanian migrants or even the Polish that were on peoples minds when they marked X on the ballot paper mate.

It was the largely male migrants from North Africa who were posing as Syrians and landing in Europe in their hundreds of thousands. In truth it was even the Syrians themselves as harsh as it sounds because people see what has happened in Cologne, Belgium, Paris & parts of Sweden and it frightens many.

Some settle in the places mentioned above but many get as far as Calais with the intention of coming here and that's what many voted to control.

EU citizens? No but certainly coming via an EU that seems to welcome them with open arms.

That is precisely why it was the largest democratic vote in the countries history and the politicians know it.

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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Pennywise » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:29 pm

I'm no fan, but that wasn't the EU, that was the UN. Who luckily have fuck all in the way of any power to be able to implement that terrible idea.

Also, that man talking is Marcel De Graaff. If you watch the entire thing he was standing up for free speech and warning the press about this motion, not announcing it.

Context is a wonderful thing.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by terrya1965 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:13 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm
Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
This narrative about the Tories bullshitting to win win Brexit is quite misleading for a number of reasons.

Firstly there were large numbers of Tories who wanted to remain and huge parts of industrial Labour heartland who wanted to leave.

So what was the connection between the leavers on the left and the right? Well it certainly wasn't the £350m per week to the NHS that was on the leavers battle bus and that's the 'huge lie' that is often mentioned.

The vast majority of the leavers voted about migration, it was a cry of frustration and far more about securing our boarders than the NHS or even trade.

So were the voters lied to and has a shit job been done . . . . . . yes. However the unprecedented levels of migration have not gone away and at best peoples concerns lie just underneath the surface.

We are seeing some serious political change across Europe right now and the beginnings of Civil unrest. Whilst I do believe that we are a long way from a populist party in this country the civil unrest part won't be far away if Brexit doesn't deliver migration control.
It wasn't the Tories. I'm pretty sure everyone was free to choose their side of the debate sans the party line.
Farage isn't a Tory, Banks is a Kremlin stooge, and the likes of Johnson and Gove were very clearly in it for themselves. Let's not forget the official government stance was remain.

I would point out that the public were lied to about immigration though. Certainly there was fear mongering about invasions from Bulgaria and Romania -- hands up who has seen one of the thousands of Romany gypsies we were warned about. No? Me neither -- not to mention Turkey. And let's be clear here, Iraq has more chance of full EU membership than Turkey.
We also had Farage with his posters of NON European immigrants. A demographic that only threatens our borders because we elect people who CHOOSE to let them in, en masse.

This idea that leaving the EU will shore up the ramparts is insane. Immigration targets didn't stop the Cameron government allowing vast numbers of non EU immigrants in. So whilst overall immigration is bound to fall, just as many non European migrants will be arriving, maybe even more. The truth about immigration is that it's an issue of supply and demand.

This is all before we get into the insinuation that the UK was part of Schengen. Because certain tabloids want us to believe free movement and open borders are the same thing.

There's so much misinformation being peddled by so many sources. It's hard to sort those with a vested interests from ideologues from actual impartial advice/predictions.

The trouble now is that every side feels hard done by. Remainers point to the lies and potential illegality, and Brexiters the vote.
Clusterfuck is the only word that does it all justice.
And the MAJORITY of those that voted to leave was because of the migration issue,nothing else.Let`s be honest here,the majority of those that voted to leave are mostly ignorant and have no knowledge about being about the EU(alright,thick twats).There are things that I disagree with about being in the EU and some things I agree on,but looking at it now,we would be stabbing ourselves in the back if we left now,because these prats(sorry politicians) haven`t got a clue,even after 2 and half years..
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by terrya1965 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:16 pm

Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:16 pm
Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm


It wasn't the Tories. I'm pretty sure everyone was free to choose their side of the debate sans the party line.
Farage isn't a Tory, Banks is a Kremlin stooge, and the likes of Johnson and Gove were very clearly in it for themselves. Let's not forget the official government stance was remain.

I would point out that the public were lied to about immigration though. Certainly there was fear mongering about invasions from Bulgaria and Romania -- hands up who has seen one of the thousands of Romany gypsies we were warned about. No? Me neither -- not to mention Turkey. And let's be clear here, Iraq has more chance of full EU membership than Turkey.
We also had Farage with his posters of NON European immigrants. A demographic that only threatens our borders because we elect people who CHOOSE to let them in, en masse.

This idea that leaving the EU will shore up the ramparts is insane. Immigration targets didn't stop the Cameron government allowing vast numbers of non EU immigrants in. So whilst overall immigration is bound to fall, just as many non European migrants will be arriving, maybe even more. The truth about immigration is that it's an issue of supply and demand.

This is all before we get into the insinuation that the UK was part of Schengen. Because certain tabloids want us to believe free movement and open borders are the same thing.

There's so much misinformation being peddled by so many sources. It's hard to sort those with a vested interests from ideologues from actual impartial advice/predictions.

The trouble now is that every side feels hard done by. Remainers point to the lies and potential illegality, and Brexiters the vote.
Clusterfuck is the only word that does it all justice.

It wasn't the Romanian migrants or even the Polish that were on peoples minds when they marked X on the ballot paper mate.

It was the largely male migrants from North Africa who were posing as Syrians and landing in Europe in their hundreds of thousands. In truth it was even the Syrians themselves as harsh as it sounds because people see what has happened in Cologne, Belgium, Paris & parts of Sweden and it frightens many.

Some settle in the places mentioned above but many get as far as Calais with the intention of coming here and that's what many voted to control.

EU citizens? No but certainly coming via an EU that seems to welcome them with open arms.

That is precisely why it was the largest democratic vote in the countries history and the politicians know it.

Spot on Gonzo.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:54 pm

Whether you're someone who voted remain or leave EVERYBODY should be very concerned with the damage that is currently being done to our economy by the bumbling buffoons trying to run the shop and the foaming mouthed nationalist opportunists like Fleas-Dogg on the one side and the Marxist Corbynistas on the other all waiting for the whole thing to come crashing down so they can each make their move and fuck the economic consequences of their ideological claptrap.

Millions of pounds were again wiped off peoples savings today on the stock market. The pound is rapidly becoming a currency about as useful on the world's money markets as a Ukrainian food coupon. FFS it was only about 12 years ago when I went to the USA and was getting almost $2 to the pound. Anyone who has children and grandchildren should be concerned, very concerned indeed, that a few years from now the prospect of anyone getting a half decent job is likely to be very slim. Some people may be happy for their kids to be condemned to a life of asking Chinese and American industrialist asset strippers if they want fries with their burgers but that's not what I want to see my grandchildren doing.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:21 am

Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:16 pm
Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm


It wasn't the Tories. I'm pretty sure everyone was free to choose their side of the debate sans the party line.
Farage isn't a Tory, Banks is a Kremlin stooge, and the likes of Johnson and Gove were very clearly in it for themselves. Let's not forget the official government stance was remain.

I would point out that the public were lied to about immigration though. Certainly there was fear mongering about invasions from Bulgaria and Romania -- hands up who has seen one of the thousands of Romany gypsies we were warned about. No? Me neither -- not to mention Turkey. And let's be clear here, Iraq has more chance of full EU membership than Turkey.
We also had Farage with his posters of NON European immigrants. A demographic that only threatens our borders because we elect people who CHOOSE to let them in, en masse.

This idea that leaving the EU will shore up the ramparts is insane. Immigration targets didn't stop the Cameron government allowing vast numbers of non EU immigrants in. So whilst overall immigration is bound to fall, just as many non European migrants will be arriving, maybe even more. The truth about immigration is that it's an issue of supply and demand.

This is all before we get into the insinuation that the UK was part of Schengen. Because certain tabloids want us to believe free movement and open borders are the same thing.

There's so much misinformation being peddled by so many sources. It's hard to sort those with a vested interests from ideologues from actual impartial advice/predictions.

The trouble now is that every side feels hard done by. Remainers point to the lies and potential illegality, and Brexiters the vote.
Clusterfuck is the only word that does it all justice.

It wasn't the Romanian migrants or even the Polish that were on peoples minds when they marked X on the ballot paper mate.

It was the largely male migrants from North Africa who were posing as Syrians and landing in Europe in their hundreds of thousands. In truth it was even the Syrians themselves as harsh as it sounds because people see what has happened in Cologne, Belgium, Paris & parts of Sweden and it frightens many.

Some settle in the places mentioned above but many get as far as Calais with the intention of coming here and that's what many voted to control.

EU citizens? No but certainly coming via an EU that seems to welcome them with open arms.

That is precisely why it was the largest democratic vote in the countries history and the politicians know it.

Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Gonzo » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:21 am
Gonzo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:16 pm



It wasn't the Romanian migrants or even the Polish that were on peoples minds when they marked X on the ballot paper mate.

It was the largely male migrants from North Africa who were posing as Syrians and landing in Europe in their hundreds of thousands. In truth it was even the Syrians themselves as harsh as it sounds because people see what has happened in Cologne, Belgium, Paris & parts of Sweden and it frightens many.

Some settle in the places mentioned above but many get as far as Calais with the intention of coming here and that's what many voted to control.

EU citizens? No but certainly coming via an EU that seems to welcome them with open arms.

That is precisely why it was the largest democratic vote in the countries history and the politicians know it.

Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.

To be fair mate Germany made 1 million of them EU passport holders and Sweden has taken 800,000 (possibly).

As for the remainder they certainly travel from the aforementioned places to the EU and they do so in the main as economic migrants. The demographic is male, early 20's and with i-phones and regardless of what the rules are they want to come to Europe.

So maybe you do have to come through customs (and many don't) but that sort of misses the point.

When the migrants set off on their journey they do so because they believe the UK is a soft touch. They think that they'll get rescued from their inflatables in the Med by the Italian patrols and from there will make their way to either Germany, France, Sweden, England or somewhere else accommodating.

They don't go to Hungary or Poland because they know they'll get fuck all but they do not view Britain in the same way. We are seen as free healthcare and housing and if for whatever reason they can't get an EU passport elsewhere in Europe they'll work in the thriving immigrant black market here instead.

The cat is out of the bag in Germany because a whole continent knows that they let in 1 million migrants and gave them a load of free shit. Even if Germany announced tomorrow that immigration to had stopped people would still arrive in their droves because the reputation has been made. The migrants don't care about the rules and are willing to circumvent whatever they need to in order to get the best life possible for themselves.

The Brexit vote was almost exclusively about stopping the sort of thing mentioned above. I guess you could explain to people what you mentioned in your post but this wasn't a referendum decided in figures, stats and rules.

Ordinary folk see the strain on hospitals & schools and the rapidly changing demographic of their local towns and that's what prompted the Brexit vote.

It was funny because following the result of the referendum there appeared to be much soul searching. The left seemed to be saying "we must learn from this and engage with the Leave voters to find out why this has happened". I vividly remember David Lammy saying that the remain politicians needed to address the voters frustrations. . . . . . . . . It lasted about a week and nobody listened and nobody learned.

And now we find ourselves in a position where everybody in the commons is talking about everything EXCEPT the reason most of the 17m people voted to leave.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by palerider » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:15 am

Gonzo wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:21 am


Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.

To be fair mate Germany made 1 million of them EU passport holders and Sweden has taken 800,000 (possibly).

As for the remainder they certainly travel from the aforementioned places to the EU and they do so in the main as economic migrants. The demographic is male, early 20's and with i-phones and regardless of what the rules are they want to come to Europe.

So maybe you do have to come through customs (and many don't) but that sort of misses the point.

When the migrants set off on their journey they do so because they believe the UK is a soft touch. They think that they'll get rescued from their inflatables in the Med by the Italian patrols and from there will make their way to either Germany, France, Sweden, England or somewhere else accommodating.

They don't go to Hungary or Poland because they know they'll get fuck all but they do not view Britain in the same way. We are seen as free healthcare and housing and if for whatever reason they can't get an EU passport elsewhere in Europe they'll work in the thriving immigrant black market here instead.

The cat is out of the bag in Germany because a whole continent knows that they let in 1 million migrants and gave them a load of free shit. Even if Germany announced tomorrow that immigration to had stopped people would still arrive in their droves because the reputation has been made. The migrants don't care about the rules and are willing to circumvent whatever they need to in order to get the best life possible for themselves.

The Brexit vote was almost exclusively about stopping the sort of thing mentioned above. I guess you could explain to people what you mentioned in your post but this wasn't a referendum decided in figures, stats and rules.

Ordinary folk see the strain on hospitals & schools and the rapidly changing demographic of their local towns and that's what prompted the Brexit vote.

It was funny because following the result of the referendum there appeared to be much soul searching. The left seemed to be saying "we must learn from this and engage with the Leave voters to find out why this has happened". I vividly remember David Lammy saying that the remain politicians needed to address the voters frustrations. . . . . . . . . It lasted about a week and nobody listened and nobody learned.

And now we find ourselves in a position where everybody in the commons is talking about everything EXCEPT the reason most of the 17m people voted to leave.
Correct. And it's certainly why I voted to leave. It wasn't trade deals.

And it's the fault of Angela Merkel.

Fishing is an issue that needs twerking as we should be able to do what we like in our own waters but if there was a second referendum and on the table was a deal that if we stayed in the EU but had the right to send those who came here illegally straight back to France without any delay, appeal....anything. And that includes children too, I'd vote to remain.

Why should we pick up the pieces for that stupid fat bitch ?

Germany and France are safe countries. They should claim asylum there.
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