The Mogg is circling...

[Gonzo]

Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.

To be fair mate Germany made 1 million of them EU passport holders and Sweden has taken 800,000 (possibly).

As for the remainder they certainly travel from the aforementioned places to the EU and they do so in the main as economic migrants. The demographic is male, early 20's and with i-phones and regardless of what the rules are they want to come to Europe.

So maybe you do have to come through customs (and many don't) but that sort of misses the point.

When the migrants set off on their journey they do so because they believe the UK is a soft touch. They think that they'll get rescued from their inflatables in the Med by the Italian patrols and from there will make their way to either Germany, France, Sweden, England or somewhere else accommodating.

They don't go to Hungary or Poland because they know they'll get fuck all but they do not view Britain in the same way. We are seen as free healthcare and housing and if for whatever reason they can't get an EU passport elsewhere in Europe they'll work in the thriving immigrant black market here instead.

The cat is out of the bag in Germany because a whole continent knows that they let in 1 million migrants and gave them a load of free shit. Even if Germany announced tomorrow that immigration to had stopped people would still arrive in their droves because the reputation has been made. The migrants don't care about the rules and are willing to circumvent whatever they need to in order to get the best life possible for themselves.

The Brexit vote was almost exclusively about stopping the sort of thing mentioned above. I guess you could explain to people what you mentioned in your post but this wasn't a referendum decided in figures, stats and rules.

Ordinary folk see the strain on hospitals & schools and the rapidly changing demographic of their local towns and that's what prompted the Brexit vote.

It was funny because following the result of the referendum there appeared to be much soul searching. The left seemed to be saying "we must learn from this and engage with the Leave voters to find out why this has happened". I vividly remember David Lammy saying that the remain politicians needed to address the voters frustrations. . . . . . . . . It lasted about a week and nobody listened and nobody learned.

And now we find ourselves in a position where everybody in the commons is talking about everything EXCEPT the reason most of the 17m people voted to leave.

Mrs Gonzo's dad is from a fishing village near Aberdeen and my brother lives in one in Devon. It's hard to explain to anyone quite how much our fishing industry has been decimated and the feeling towards the EU from those parts.

The other thing I hear about is agriculture because I know a lot of people that own land from shooting. We are producing less and less and have been encouraged to do so by the EU for quite some time. I believe we now only produce 46% of the food we consume in this country and it's dropping all the time . . . . . . not a particularly shrewd move with a rapidly expanding population.

Anyway my friend is paid more in EU subsidies to keep his fields with grass on them than he would earn from farming them. That needs to be reversed and we need to get it back above the 50% mark mark and keep going. Anyone who remembers the patch-work fields of the English countryside of 30 years ago will notice that there are very few crops and animals there anymore.

To be fair he's not unhappy because he's well paid to do fuck all but the EU have decreed that France is the agricultural sector. In a rapidly changing world we should really be producing much of our own energy, harvesting our own crops and fishing our own waters. However we have been weakened to such a position that we are an OPEC maneuver away from impacting the food on our shelves. . . . . . . a ridiculous situation for an Island with fertile land and an abundance of fish & coal to allow itself to get into.

[Pennywise]

It wasn't the Romanian migrants or even the Polish that were on peoples minds when they marked X on the ballot paper mate.

It was the largely male migrants from North Africa who were posing as Syrians and landing in Europe in their hundreds of thousands. In truth it was even the Syrians themselves as harsh as it sounds because people see what has happened in Cologne, Belgium, Paris & parts of Sweden and it frightens many.

Some settle in the places mentioned above but many get as far as Calais with the intention of coming here and that's what many voted to control.

EU citizens? No but certainly coming via an EU that seems to welcome them with open arms.

That is precisely why it was the largest democratic vote in the countries history and the politicians know it.

Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.

Not only that, but Marcel De Graaff was warning the watching world about this proposed bill, NOT announcing it.

It's all about context.

[mkhammer]

There was not one particular reason,we voted to leave,everyone had their own reasons,
Whether that be Economic,Immigration,Overcrowding..leading to breakdowns in our infrastructure...
Housing/Schooling/NHS....etc.....
Different People in different parts of the country,did what they thought was best for them and their
community.

Me.. it was all of the above......My situation is fine,won't affect me one way or the other,
Most of us wont see any change anyway .....it's long term,for future generations...
...to give them control of their own society in the years to come,and not be dictated to.
Took a look around,listened,and voted what I thought would be best for the country in GENERAL.
It's a matter of weighing things up Pros/Cons if you like and going with it.

The Over riding thing for me was...Control...to be in control of our destiny,to do what is best
for this country.....as every Country should do what is best for itself,not 27 others,co-operate
trade with ...bail out even...but on our terms..

It's a different World now from 20 years ago,World trade is Booming....Immigration is Rife,for
a hundred reasons..if people can't see our infrastructure is getting stretched,ask yourselves,
...What is causing Overcrowding in our Hospitals/Schools/Transport...
We can't have free Movement in Europe...just Can't.....Everyone moves to where the money is,
Their own country collapses,no workers ...no investment..the country they choose to move to
will be eventually reach a point we're at now.....it's to come for Germany,Sweden etc,give it
another 10/15 years they'll be in our situation...it screws things up,no one gains long term,
us or them......it's all about investment in the countries their coming from,get their economies
moving.....(difficult in middle east war torn countries admittedly) but elsewhere...But Being in
the EU limits who we trade with,makes it difficult....Vicious circle...
If the EU was doing its Fuckin job....we wouldn't have a Prob with EU immigration................
And People wanna stay in this SHIT ORGANISATION................
The Euro Currency went a long way to Fuckin things up IMO...but that's another argument...
You need currency fluctuations,it's like stocks...they need to go up and down,you have buyers
and sellers...keeps money moving...even the so called "weak pound"...means our exports are cheaper
a seriously strong pound now would be the worst thing for us..
Done to make things trade etc easier.... use a calculator then...
We've still got the pound.. have we suffered......now look at countries,that gave their currencies
up ...Greece,Italy,Spain,Ireland.. others.....all struggled.(The Irish had a booming economy,
late 90s early 2000s,Euro comes along...BAM)
The EU does not work...

Unfortunately Immigration is the Crux of it......Can have the strongest economy in the world,
as ours IS one...like it or not............
to many people draining it ...your screwed...it's getting that balance.
Most nearly all "Immigration" outside Europe is People coming here to contribute,to work,pay
taxes.....50% of EU Immigration is,people coming here for other Economic reasons...Benefits..
It's about doing the sums..

[terrya1965]

Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.

You have made some excellent points Gonzo..This is the content that should be printed in tabloid Newspapers to help them understand.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.

To be fair mate Germany made 1 million of them EU passport holders and Sweden has taken 800,000 (possibly).

As for the remainder they certainly travel from the aforementioned places to the EU and they do so in the main as economic migrants. The demographic is male, early 20's and with i-phones and regardless of what the rules are they want to come to Europe.

So maybe you do have to come through customs (and many don't) but that sort of misses the point.

When the migrants set off on their journey they do so because they believe the UK is a soft touch. They think that they'll get rescued from their inflatables in the Med by the Italian patrols and from there will make their way to either Germany, France, Sweden, England or somewhere else accommodating.

They don't go to Hungary or Poland because they know they'll get fuck all but they do not view Britain in the same way. We are seen as free healthcare and housing and if for whatever reason they can't get an EU passport elsewhere in Europe they'll work in the thriving immigrant black market here instead.

The cat is out of the bag in Germany because a whole continent knows that they let in 1 million migrants and gave them a load of free shit. Even if Germany announced tomorrow that immigration to had stopped people would still arrive in their droves because the reputation has been made. The migrants don't care about the rules and are willing to circumvent whatever they need to in order to get the best life possible for themselves.

The Brexit vote was almost exclusively about stopping the sort of thing mentioned above. I guess you could explain to people what you mentioned in your post but this wasn't a referendum decided in figures, stats and rules.

Ordinary folk see the strain on hospitals & schools and the rapidly changing demographic of their local towns and that's what prompted the Brexit vote.

It was funny because following the result of the referendum there appeared to be much soul searching. The left seemed to be saying "we must learn from this and engage with the Leave voters to find out why this has happened". I vividly remember David Lammy saying that the remain politicians needed to address the voters frustrations. . . . . . . . . It lasted about a week and nobody listened and nobody learned.

And now we find ourselves in a position where everybody in the commons is talking about everything EXCEPT the reason most of the 17m people voted to leave.

[terrya1965]

There was not one particular reason,we voted to leave,everyone had their own reasons,
Whether that be Economic,Immigration,Overcrowding..leading to breakdowns in our infrastructure...
Housing/Schooling/NHS....etc.....
Different People in different parts of the country,did what they thought was best for them and their
community.

Me.. it was all of the above......My situation is fine,won't affect me one way or the other,
Most of us wont see any change anyway .....it's long term,for future generations...
...to give them control of their own society in the years to come,and not be dictated to.
Took a look around,listened,and voted what I thought would be best for the country in GENERAL.
It's a matter of weighing things up Pros/Cons if you like and going with it.

The Over riding thing for me was...Control...to be in control of our destiny,to do what is best
for this country.....as every Country should do what is best for itself,not 27 others,co-operate
trade with ...bail out even...but on our terms..

It's a different World now from 20 years ago,World trade is Booming....Immigration is Rife,for
a hundred reasons..if people can't see our infrastructure is getting stretched,ask yourselves,
...What is causing Overcrowding in our Hospitals/Schools/Transport...
We can't have free Movement in Europe...just Can't.....Everyone moves to where the money is,
Their own country collapses,no workers ...no investment..the country they choose to move to
will be eventually reach a point we're at now.....it's to come for Germany,Sweden etc,give it
another 10/15 years they'll be in our situation...it screws things up,no one gains long term,
us or them......it's all about investment in the countries their coming from,get their economies
moving.....(difficult in middle east war torn countries admittedly) but elsewhere...But Being in
the EU limits who we trade with,makes it difficult....Vicious circle...
If the EU was doing its Fuckin job....we wouldn't have a Prob with EU immigration................
And People wanna stay in this SHIT ORGANISATION................
The Euro Currency went a long way to Fuckin things up IMO...but that's another argument...
You need currency fluctuations,it's like stocks...they need to go up and down,you have buyers
and sellers...keeps money moving...even the so called "weak pound"...means our exports are cheaper
a seriously strong pound now would be the worst thing for us..
Done to make things trade etc easier.... use a calculator then...
We've still got the pound.. have we suffered......now look at countries,that gave their currencies
up ...Greece,Italy,Spain,Ireland.. others.....all struggled.(The Irish had a booming economy,
late 90s early 2000s,Euro comes along...BAM)
The EU does not work...

Unfortunately Immigration is the Crux of it......Can have the strongest economy in the world,
as ours IS one...like it or not............
to many people draining it ...your screwed...it's getting that balance.
Most nearly all "Immigration" outside Europe is People coming here to contribute,to work,pay
taxes.....50% of EU Immigration is,people coming here for other Economic reasons...Benefits..
It's about doing the sums..

Some good points made there and one of the reasons,I sit on the fence.

[Whiskyman]

The Euro Currency went a long way to Fuckin things up IMO...but that's another argument...
You need currency fluctuations,it's like stocks...they need to go up and down,you have buyers
and sellers...keeps money moving...even the so called "weak pound"...means our exports are cheaper
a seriously strong pound now would be the worst thing for us..

Errr sorry but no it wouldn't. Elsewhere on this thread someone has very articulately pointed out that we produce less than 50% of our own food. I didn't know that but if it's true then clearly we are importing the 50 plus percent. Food is probably the most fundamental of our needs and a weak pound means, very simply, that food will cost us more.

It's all very well saying a weak pound helps exports but we, as a country, are a net importer of goods. Largely of course because our manufacturing base has eroded, in large part because of high labour costs. Very simplistically a country's currency strength is determined by it's overall economic well being and you are of course right when you say that the Euro is a one size fits all currency, the strength of which is good for an economic powerhouse like Germany but not as good for Greece. Although the Greek economy has been mismanaged for many years, but that's another story. But of course as a Londoner I could put forward an equally persuasive case for London, which generates a massive percentage of the country's wealth relative to it's size, being uncoupled and given it's independence from Northern Ireland, and the more economically deprived areas of the UK which are spending much more on subsidies and benefits than they are generating.

When the Euro was launched a pound bought 1.41 of the things. Because I worked at that time for an international trading company I was able to opt in to having my salary paid in Euros. I also tied my pension deal up that way. As a result my pension now pays me 20% more in real terms than it would have had I opted for the sterling option.

I was lucky to have had that opportunity but many haven't enjoyed that good fortune. In Europe or out of Europe our currency and our economy is a basket case. We are over reliant on the financial services industry which used to produce around 12% of our overall GDP, I've no idea what the figure is now but the 12% was from when I was at Uni studying economics hundreds of years ago so I guess it's now more than that. Such a massive reliance on one sector isn't healthy but I don't see any way this imbalance cabn be reversed.

My concern as a lifelong conservative voter is that the party is allowing itself to be held to ransom by Little Englanders who have a hugely inflated view of this country's relevance on the world, not European, stage. It is very similar to the way the Labour party has once again been hi jacked by the Marxist left. Both Marxism and Little Englandism, if I can call it that, will be economically disastrous for this country whether we are in Europe or out of it. And although I fortunately will not be affected either way, in fact I'll be better off if sterling falls off a cliff, my kids and my grandchildren will have to pick up the shit left by my generation.

And that worries me tbh, because the rules of economics will always win through, Brexit or no Brexit.

[Neville Bartos]

Trouble is those North Africans or Syrians have no more right to enter the UK whether we're in or out of the EU.
This is where the 'open borders' lie sows it's nasty little seeds.
If you travel to the UK from the EU you MUST pass customs. The only way a North African or Syrian is getting into the UK without the government's say so is if they've got an EU passport. That is a fact.

And are non EU citizens looking for UK residency -- legal or otherwise -- going to stop or disappear because we're no longer in the EU? Clearly not as we've never had an open border with France.
You wouldn't believe it, but France does us a favour by keeping those seeking entry into the UK on their side of the Channel.

Now if people fear this kind of stuff so much they'd take the trouble to vote on it, why don't they know this?
Why don't they read about it in the papers, or listen to their politicians informing them?

Let's not confuse real, genuine concerns with this agenda driven fear mongering.
The kind of immigrants that are constantly alluded to -- Muslims, Asians, North Africans, Turks, Syrians -- do NOT arrive from the EU.
They arrive with our elected governments blessing and consent. THAT is the truth.


Edit: that UN migration thing is non binding. Which basically means even if you sign up to it you're not legally bound by it. Making it utterly worthless... unless you leave that part out and use it as a propaganda tool.
Took 3 seconds to look for and find that entirely salient piece of information.

To be fair mate Germany made 1 million of them EU passport holders and Sweden has taken 800,000 (possibly).

As for the remainder they certainly travel from the aforementioned places to the EU and they do so in the main as economic migrants. The demographic is male, early 20's and with i-phones and regardless of what the rules are they want to come to Europe.

So maybe you do have to come through customs (and many don't) but that sort of misses the point.

When the migrants set off on their journey they do so because they believe the UK is a soft touch. They think that they'll get rescued from their inflatables in the Med by the Italian patrols and from there will make their way to either Germany, France, Sweden, England or somewhere else accommodating.

They don't go to Hungary or Poland because they know they'll get fuck all but they do not view Britain in the same way. We are seen as free healthcare and housing and if for whatever reason they can't get an EU passport elsewhere in Europe they'll work in the thriving immigrant black market here instead.

The cat is out of the bag in Germany because a whole continent knows that they let in 1 million migrants and gave them a load of free shit. Even if Germany announced tomorrow that immigration to had stopped people would still arrive in their droves because the reputation has been made. The migrants don't care about the rules and are willing to circumvent whatever they need to in order to get the best life possible for themselves.

The Brexit vote was almost exclusively about stopping the sort of thing mentioned above. I guess you could explain to people what you mentioned in your post but this wasn't a referendum decided in figures, stats and rules.

Ordinary folk see the strain on hospitals & schools and the rapidly changing demographic of their local towns and that's what prompted the Brexit vote.

It was funny because following the result of the referendum there appeared to be much soul searching. The left seemed to be saying "we must learn from this and engage with the Leave voters to find out why this has happened". I vividly remember David Lammy saying that the remain politicians needed to address the voters frustrations. . . . . . . . . It lasted about a week and nobody listened and nobody learned.

And now we find ourselves in a position where everybody in the commons is talking about everything EXCEPT the reason most of the 17m people voted to leave.

Are they passports or are they RTDs?
Quote; A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union.

It's up to the various member states of the EU who they let in from outside the EUs borders.
The fact remains anyone travelling to the UK must pass through customs. There is no open border, there is no free movement for non EU citizens.

I think a lot of migration trends go back to colonialism. Most North Africans head for France, Turks tend to head for Germany, and many, due to the expanse of the British Empire, make for the UK. Language is also a factor, English being the most widely spoken language in the world.
But that said maybe we are a soft touch, but again that has precisely nothing to do with the EU.
And just to reiterate, who is going to go to work and live in Germany for 6 to 10 years in order to get a German passport, just so they can come to the UK and sponge off the welfare state?
This is the madness of propaganda. People are so busy being outraged at these faceless immigrant invaders, no-one bothers to check the practicalities.

Let's be clear about Germany, they let in refugees not migrants. Mostly Syrians and North Africans displaced by Western foreign policy in the region. Again, we elected the politicians that removed Saddam and Gaddafi, turning (comparatively) stable countries into the wild west.
So, isn't this the EU attempting to clear up a mess that the UK is disproportionately responsible for? After all the Germans had no hand in removing Saddam, which in turn lead to the rise of ISIS, which lead to a civil war in Syria, which displaced hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

As for migrants not caring about the rules. That, I'm sorry to say, is the kind of generalisation far right groups thrive on. Pushing the idea that every migrant or refugee coming to Europe is a 24 year old male, with no respect for the law is pure nonsense.
It's one step away from Nazi era propaganda about the Jews.
Quote: The use of propaganda and laws to define the enemy as a cohesive group was a key factor in achieving the goals of the Nazi regime.

And

These campaigns incited hatred or cultivated indifference to it. They were particularly effective in creating an atmosphere tolerant of violence against Jews.

I'd offer up Tommy Robinson's tirade against the Syrian boy who was bullied as evidence of the above example.

If the Brexit vote was purely about immigration then misinformation and propaganda as opposed to stats, facts and rules delivered the result.

Strain on Schools and hospitals is another piece of clever propaganda. Austerity has nothing to do with immigration or the EU. Reduced numbers of Police, nurses, doctors and hospital beds are not a result of immigration. On the whole immigrants are younger and as such less prone to use the NHS as much as our own ageing population.
Going by the stats, rather than tabloid opinion pieces, immigrants make a net contribution in terms of public services.

Us proles love simple solutions. The NHS is stretched... blame foreigners. Crime is on the rise... blame foreigners. Class sizes are rising ... blame foreigners. The economy is in decline... blame foreigners. The panacea for all the ills a country might suffer... blaming foreigners.

And who can blame us for believing it. Fed as we are on a diet of media lies?
Who wants to hear that we voted in the idiots responsible for the financial crash, austerity, reduced numbers of police, nurses, doctors, hospital beds, and record level of immigration? Why take responsibility when we can blame some poor sod from Syria who has had to move because his next door neighbour is Jihadi John?

I weep for this country, Gonzo, I really do, mate.
I think people have come to rely on the media for their opinions. And that we're willing to believe anything that panders to our own bias and agenda, be it left or right.

As for David Lammy? Another simple solutions man.

[Gonzo]

To be fair mate Germany made 1 million of them EU passport holders and Sweden has taken 800,000 (possibly).

As for the remainder they certainly travel from the aforementioned places to the EU and they do so in the main as economic migrants. The demographic is male, early 20's and with i-phones and regardless of what the rules are they want to come to Europe.

So maybe you do have to come through customs (and many don't) but that sort of misses the point.

When the migrants set off on their journey they do so because they believe the UK is a soft touch. They think that they'll get rescued from their inflatables in the Med by the Italian patrols and from there will make their way to either Germany, France, Sweden, England or somewhere else accommodating.

They don't go to Hungary or Poland because they know they'll get fuck all but they do not view Britain in the same way. We are seen as free healthcare and housing and if for whatever reason they can't get an EU passport elsewhere in Europe they'll work in the thriving immigrant black market here instead.

The cat is out of the bag in Germany because a whole continent knows that they let in 1 million migrants and gave them a load of free shit. Even if Germany announced tomorrow that immigration to had stopped people would still arrive in their droves because the reputation has been made. The migrants don't care about the rules and are willing to circumvent whatever they need to in order to get the best life possible for themselves.

The Brexit vote was almost exclusively about stopping the sort of thing mentioned above. I guess you could explain to people what you mentioned in your post but this wasn't a referendum decided in figures, stats and rules.

Ordinary folk see the strain on hospitals & schools and the rapidly changing demographic of their local towns and that's what prompted the Brexit vote.

It was funny because following the result of the referendum there appeared to be much soul searching. The left seemed to be saying "we must learn from this and engage with the Leave voters to find out why this has happened". I vividly remember David Lammy saying that the remain politicians needed to address the voters frustrations. . . . . . . . . It lasted about a week and nobody listened and nobody learned.

And now we find ourselves in a position where everybody in the commons is talking about everything EXCEPT the reason most of the 17m people voted to leave.

Are they passports or are they RTDs?
Quote; A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union.

It's up to the various member states of the EU who they let in from outside the EUs borders.
The fact remains anyone travelling to the UK must pass through customs. There is no open border, there is no free movement for non EU citizens.

I think a lot of migration trends go back to colonialism. Most North Africans head for France, Turks tend to head for Germany, and many, due to the expanse of the British Empire, make for the UK. Language is also a factor, English being the most widely spoken language in the world.
But that said maybe we are a soft touch, but again that has precisely nothing to do with the EU.
And just to reiterate, who is going to go to work and live in Germany for 6 to 10 years in order to get a German passport, just so they can come to the UK and sponge off the welfare state?
This is the madness of propaganda. People are so busy being outraged at these faceless immigrant invaders, no-one bothers to check the practicalities.

Let's be clear about Germany, they let in refugees not migrants. Mostly Syrians and North Africans displaced by Western foreign policy in the region. Again, we elected the politicians that removed Saddam and Gaddafi, turning (comparatively) stable countries into the wild west.
So, isn't this the EU attempting to clear up a mess that the UK is disproportionately responsible for? After all the Germans had no hand in removing Saddam, which in turn lead to the rise of ISIS, which lead to a civil war in Syria, which displaced hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

As for migrants not caring about the rules. That, I'm sorry to say, is the kind of generalisation far right groups thrive on. Pushing the idea that every migrant or refugee coming to Europe is a 24 year old male, with no respect for the law is pure nonsense.
It's one step away from Nazi era propaganda about the Jews.
Quote: The use of propaganda and laws to define the enemy as a cohesive group was a key factor in achieving the goals of the Nazi regime.

And

These campaigns incited hatred or cultivated indifference to it. They were particularly effective in creating an atmosphere tolerant of violence against Jews.

I'd offer up Tommy Robinson's tirade against the Syrian boy who was bullied as evidence of the above example.

If the Brexit vote was purely about immigration then misinformation and propaganda as opposed to stats, facts and rules delivered the result.

Strain on Schools and hospitals is another piece of clever propaganda. Austerity has nothing to do with immigration or the EU. Reduced numbers of Police, nurses, doctors and hospital beds are not a result of immigration. On the whole immigrants are younger and as such less prone to use the NHS as much as our own ageing population.
Going by the stats, rather than tabloid opinion pieces, immigrants make a net contribution in terms of public services.

Us proles love simple solutions. The NHS is stretched... blame foreigners. Crime is on the rise... blame foreigners. Class sizes are rising ... blame foreigners. The economy is in decline... blame foreigners. The panacea for all the ills a country might suffer... blaming foreigners.

And who can blame us for believing it. Fed as we are on a diet of media lies?
Who wants to hear that we voted in the idiots responsible for the financial crash, austerity, reduced numbers of police, nurses, doctors, hospital beds, and record level of immigration? Why take responsibility when we can blame some poor sod from Syria who has had to move because his next door neighbour is Jihadi John?

I weep for this country, Gonzo, I really do, mate.
I think people have come to rely on the media for their opinions. And that we're willing to believe anything that panders to our own bias and agenda, be it left or right.

As for David Lammy? Another simple solutions man.

As always you speak a lot of sense and truth mate and as for the precise nature of the German Citizenship I couldn't say.

As for the demographic of the migrants I didn't say that they were all 24 year old males but it is completely disproportionate. There is not a broad spread of men and women of all age groups and that's not propaganda.

I certainly think that folk are far more compassionate toward a family of war torn refugees but when people are seeing hoards of young men in a previously peaceful town they care little for the small print of whether they're refugees or migrants.

I make you right about Libya and Iraq but what you are suggesting sounds like recompense to me . . . . . . due to the failures of previous government foreign policy we have to accept swathes of people who generally don't even assimilate into the British culture very well. Like it and lump it basically.

Well if that is the case then that is not going to end well for either party.

I take your 'blame foreigners' comments and fully understand that they are not to blame for all of our countries failures. However the very fact that you write in the way that you do only further highlights my point that people don't understand the leavers frustrations. The finger is so off the pulse that many can't even begin to understand the frustrations that many feel.

So the doctors, schools etc can all be explained away by facts and stats but people know what they see with their own eyes.

I grew up in Ilford and in 35 years it's changed beyond all recognition. It used to be multicultural but now it is mono-cultural and you'll not hear English spoken much on the street very much at all.

My grandparents are from West London and their particular part is now almost exclusively Somali. I tried to take my son to my old house once. The street actually features in Quadrophenia and you can see my nan's house in the background. She lived next door to her brother and their other sister lived across the road. My other grandparents lived in the Peabody flats opposite literally 100 yards away. As a child it was entirely possible for me to travel within half a mile and visit 5 households in my family.

Anyway, when I took my son back to a place of great nostalgia for me it was very clear that we were not welcome and it was not safe. We stuck out like a sore thumb and there is nobody from 30/40 years ago left there anymore . . . . . they've all moved. Just like everyone I knew that lived in Ilford has moved out. There was a big group of us as kids growing up, lads from Laos, Hong Kong, St Lucia and a Sikh from Norway all of who'm have left and I'm still in touch with.

I moved down to Morden in my early 20's and that went the same way so we moved out of there too. We live near Reading now and that will be mono cultural within 20 years and Camberley is starting to go too. We'll eventually move again and probably down to Devon because we've seen it all before. The schools will get worse, crime will go up, pubs will close down and the people you know will move away.

So whilst we are being told that we're racist and that immigration is good for the country we watch our culture change before our eyes. Labour & Conservative not only don't give a fuck but they are complicit. So Brexit may not make sense technically for many of the reasons stated by yourself above but as I said it was a cry for help and a display of anger aimed at the ruling class.

If it's ignored and in particular the frustrations behind it then that cry for help will only intensify.

[Neville Bartos]

Are they passports or are they RTDs?
Quote; A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union.

It's up to the various member states of the EU who they let in from outside the EUs borders.
The fact remains anyone travelling to the UK must pass through customs. There is no open border, there is no free movement for non EU citizens.

I think a lot of migration trends go back to colonialism. Most North Africans head for France, Turks tend to head for Germany, and many, due to the expanse of the British Empire, make for the UK. Language is also a factor, English being the most widely spoken language in the world.
But that said maybe we are a soft touch, but again that has precisely nothing to do with the EU.
And just to reiterate, who is going to go to work and live in Germany for 6 to 10 years in order to get a German passport, just so they can come to the UK and sponge off the welfare state?
This is the madness of propaganda. People are so busy being outraged at these faceless immigrant invaders, no-one bothers to check the practicalities.

Let's be clear about Germany, they let in refugees not migrants. Mostly Syrians and North Africans displaced by Western foreign policy in the region. Again, we elected the politicians that removed Saddam and Gaddafi, turning (comparatively) stable countries into the wild west.
So, isn't this the EU attempting to clear up a mess that the UK is disproportionately responsible for? After all the Germans had no hand in removing Saddam, which in turn lead to the rise of ISIS, which lead to a civil war in Syria, which displaced hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

As for migrants not caring about the rules. That, I'm sorry to say, is the kind of generalisation far right groups thrive on. Pushing the idea that every migrant or refugee coming to Europe is a 24 year old male, with no respect for the law is pure nonsense.
It's one step away from Nazi era propaganda about the Jews.
Quote: The use of propaganda and laws to define the enemy as a cohesive group was a key factor in achieving the goals of the Nazi regime.

And

These campaigns incited hatred or cultivated indifference to it. They were particularly effective in creating an atmosphere tolerant of violence against Jews.

I'd offer up Tommy Robinson's tirade against the Syrian boy who was bullied as evidence of the above example.

If the Brexit vote was purely about immigration then misinformation and propaganda as opposed to stats, facts and rules delivered the result.

Strain on Schools and hospitals is another piece of clever propaganda. Austerity has nothing to do with immigration or the EU. Reduced numbers of Police, nurses, doctors and hospital beds are not a result of immigration. On the whole immigrants are younger and as such less prone to use the NHS as much as our own ageing population.
Going by the stats, rather than tabloid opinion pieces, immigrants make a net contribution in terms of public services.

Us proles love simple solutions. The NHS is stretched... blame foreigners. Crime is on the rise... blame foreigners. Class sizes are rising ... blame foreigners. The economy is in decline... blame foreigners. The panacea for all the ills a country might suffer... blaming foreigners.

And who can blame us for believing it. Fed as we are on a diet of media lies?
Who wants to hear that we voted in the idiots responsible for the financial crash, austerity, reduced numbers of police, nurses, doctors, hospital beds, and record level of immigration? Why take responsibility when we can blame some poor sod from Syria who has had to move because his next door neighbour is Jihadi John?

I weep for this country, Gonzo, I really do, mate.
I think people have come to rely on the media for their opinions. And that we're willing to believe anything that panders to our own bias and agenda, be it left or right.

As for David Lammy? Another simple solutions man.

As always you speak a lot of sense and truth mate and as for the precise nature of the German Citizenship I couldn't say.

As for the demographic of the migrants I didn't say that they were all 24 year old males but it is completely disproportionate. There is not a broad spread of men and women of all age groups and that's not propaganda.

I certainly think that folk are far more compassionate toward a family of war torn refugees but when people are seeing hoards of young men in a previously peaceful town they care little for the small print of whether they're refugees or migrants.

I make you right about Libya and Iraq but what you are suggesting sounds like recompense to me . . . . . . due to the failures of previous government foreign policy we have to accept swathes of people who generally don't even assimilate into the British culture very well. Like it and lump it basically.

Well if that is the case then that is not going to end well for either party.

I take your 'blame foreigners' comments and fully understand that they are not to blame for all of our countries failures. However the very fact that you write in the way that you do only further highlights my point that people don't understand the leavers frustrations. The finger is so off the pulse that many can't even begin to understand the frustrations that many feel.

So the doctors, schools etc can all be explained away by facts and stats but people know what they see with their own eyes.

I grew up in Ilford and in 35 years it's changed beyond all recognition. It used to be multicultural but now it is mono-cultural and you'll not hear English spoken much on the street very much at all.

My grandparents are from West London and their particular part is now almost exclusively Somali. I tried to take my son to my old house once. The street actually features in Quadrophenia and you can see my nan's house in the background. She lived next door to her brother and their other sister lived across the road. My other grandparents lived in the Peabody flats opposite literally 100 yards away. As a child it was entirely possible for me to travel within half a mile and visit 5 households in my family.

Anyway, when I took my son back to a place of great nostalgia for me it was very clear that we were not welcome and it was not safe. We stuck out like a sore thumb and there is nobody from 30/40 years ago left there anymore . . . . . they've all moved. Just like everyone I knew that lived in Ilford has moved out. There was a big group of us as kids growing up, lads from Laos, Hong Kong, St Lucia and a Sikh from Norway all of who'm have left and I'm still in touch with.

I moved down to Morden in my early 20's and that went the same way so we moved out of there too. We live near Reading now and that will be mono cultural within 20 years and Camberley is starting to go too. We'll eventually move again and probably down to Devon because we've seen it all before. The schools will get worse, crime will go up, pubs will close down and the people you know will move away.

So whilst we are being told that we're racist and that immigration is good for the country we watch our culture change before our eyes. Labour & Conservative not only don't give a fuck but they are complicit. So Brexit may not make sense technically for many of the reasons stated by yourself above but as I said it was a cry for help and a display of anger aimed at the ruling class.

If it's ignored and in particular the frustrations behind it then that cry for help will only intensify.

Sorry, mate, I didn't mean to imply you said all migrants were lawless young men.
But as disproportionate a demographic as they maybe, they are, for the most part, not our problem. And the idea that we, as part of the EU, will inherit these problems is pure scaremongering.

The areas of this country that have become ghettos for immigrants have nothing to do with the EU. There just aren't large areas of London, Blackburn, or Birmingham that are Polish, or Bulgarian, or Portuguese only.

Immigration is pure economics. How many English born people will work 2 jobs on minimum wage living in London? In the old days poor white people served as the underclass, these days we need to import them.

People should care about the difference between refugees and migrants, because one overwhelmingly outnumbers the other. There were somewhere around 27,000 applications for asylum in this country. That's out of around 600,000+ immigrants, or less than 5% of people arriving in this country.

I'm not suggesting we should be responsible for all those refugees arriving in Europe, but my word, there is a complete lack of self awareness in the rhetoric we see. What right have they got coming to our country, but it's fine for us to destroy the peace and stability of theirs?

I take your point about leavers frustrations. My time in cities is limited. Both my grandfathers worked as farm labourers, all the way from Essex up into Norfolk, and most of my life has been spent in villages and county towns. In short East Anglia isn't Blackburn or East Ham.

But in truth the seeds of these frustrations pre-date the EU. Old neighbourhoods haven't changed because of EU free movement. Our own governments have overseen these demographic shifts.
The only time we ever see a reduction in demand for immigrant workers is when the economy is at low tide. 3 million unemployed in the 80s, net migration as good as zero.
Even recently we see a fall in immigration numbers coinciding with a dip in the economy. It's no accident.

I think a lot of people see what they want to see. And connect the dots how they see fit.
Everyone's situation is different though, so it would be silly to use labels like racist.
Deep down I think a lot of us don't like change, maybe even fear it. Seeing those places we are connected to altered so drastically can be jarring. Especially if you've not moved on yourself.

But I genuinely believe we are being manipulated en masse. Those who are responsible for many of the negatives in our society are using the media to shift attention away from their own culpability.
Brexit may well be a kick at the teeth of the establishment, but it won't be the establishment who bears any pain it might bring.
There is money to be made and influence to be gained in leaving the EU, but not for the likes of us.

I will just say mate, there's some fantastic opinions, arguments and viewpoints in this thread. I might not agree with all of them, but it's a real pleasure reading them.

[Gonzo]

As always you speak a lot of sense and truth mate and as for the precise nature of the German Citizenship I couldn't say.

As for the demographic of the migrants I didn't say that they were all 24 year old males but it is completely disproportionate. There is not a broad spread of men and women of all age groups and that's not propaganda.

I certainly think that folk are far more compassionate toward a family of war torn refugees but when people are seeing hoards of young men in a previously peaceful town they care little for the small print of whether they're refugees or migrants.

I make you right about Libya and Iraq but what you are suggesting sounds like recompense to me . . . . . . due to the failures of previous government foreign policy we have to accept swathes of people who generally don't even assimilate into the British culture very well. Like it and lump it basically.

Well if that is the case then that is not going to end well for either party.

I take your 'blame foreigners' comments and fully understand that they are not to blame for all of our countries failures. However the very fact that you write in the way that you do only further highlights my point that people don't understand the leavers frustrations. The finger is so off the pulse that many can't even begin to understand the frustrations that many feel.

So the doctors, schools etc can all be explained away by facts and stats but people know what they see with their own eyes.

I grew up in Ilford and in 35 years it's changed beyond all recognition. It used to be multicultural but now it is mono-cultural and you'll not hear English spoken much on the street very much at all.

My grandparents are from West London and their particular part is now almost exclusively Somali. I tried to take my son to my old house once. The street actually features in Quadrophenia and you can see my nan's house in the background. She lived next door to her brother and their other sister lived across the road. My other grandparents lived in the Peabody flats opposite literally 100 yards away. As a child it was entirely possible for me to travel within half a mile and visit 5 households in my family.

Anyway, when I took my son back to a place of great nostalgia for me it was very clear that we were not welcome and it was not safe. We stuck out like a sore thumb and there is nobody from 30/40 years ago left there anymore . . . . . they've all moved. Just like everyone I knew that lived in Ilford has moved out. There was a big group of us as kids growing up, lads from Laos, Hong Kong, St Lucia and a Sikh from Norway all of who'm have left and I'm still in touch with.

I moved down to Morden in my early 20's and that went the same way so we moved out of there too. We live near Reading now and that will be mono cultural within 20 years and Camberley is starting to go too. We'll eventually move again and probably down to Devon because we've seen it all before. The schools will get worse, crime will go up, pubs will close down and the people you know will move away.

So whilst we are being told that we're racist and that immigration is good for the country we watch our culture change before our eyes. Labour & Conservative not only don't give a fuck but they are complicit. So Brexit may not make sense technically for many of the reasons stated by yourself above but as I said it was a cry for help and a display of anger aimed at the ruling class.

If it's ignored and in particular the frustrations behind it then that cry for help will only intensify.

Sorry, mate, I didn't mean to imply you said all migrants were lawless young men.
But as disproportionate a demographic as they maybe, they are, for the most part, not our problem. And the idea that we, as part of the EU, will inherit these problems is pure scaremongering.

The areas of this country that have become ghettos for immigrants have nothing to do with the EU. There just aren't large areas of London, Blackburn, or Birmingham that are Polish, or Bulgarian, or Portuguese only.

Immigration is pure economics. How many English born people will work 2 jobs on minimum wage living in London? In the old days poor white people served as the underclass, these days we need to import them.

People should care about the difference between refugees and migrants, because one overwhelmingly outnumbers the other. There were somewhere around 27,000 applications for asylum in this country. That's out of around 600,000+ immigrants, or less than 5% of people arriving in this country.

I'm not suggesting we should be responsible for all those refugees arriving in Europe, but my word, there is a complete lack of self awareness in the rhetoric we see. What right have they got coming to our country, but it's fine for us to destroy the peace and stability of theirs?

I take your point about leavers frustrations. My time in cities is limited. Both my grandfathers worked as farm labourers, all the way from Essex up into Norfolk, and most of my life has been spent in villages and county towns. In short East Anglia isn't Blackburn or East Ham.

But in truth the seeds of these frustrations pre-date the EU. Old neighbourhoods haven't changed because of EU free movement. Our own governments have overseen these demographic shifts.
The only time we ever see a reduction in demand for immigrant workers is when the economy is at low tide. 3 million unemployed in the 80s, net migration as good as zero.
Even recently we see a fall in immigration numbers coinciding with a dip in the economy. It's no accident.

I think a lot of people see what they want to see. And connect the dots how they see fit.
Everyone's situation is different though, so it would be silly to use labels like racist.
Deep down I think a lot of us don't like change, maybe even fear it. Seeing those places we are connected to altered so drastically can be jarring. Especially if you've not moved on yourself.

But I genuinely believe we are being manipulated en masse. Those who are responsible for many of the negatives in our society are using the media to shift attention away from their own culpability.
Brexit may well be a kick at the teeth of the establishment, but it won't be the establishment who bears any pain it might bring.
There is money to be made and influence to be gained in leaving the EU, but not for the likes of us.

I will just say mate, there's some fantastic opinions, arguments and viewpoints in this thread. I might not agree with all of them, but it's a real pleasure reading them.

It's a dying art (probably the wrong word) I'm afraid mate. Political difference so often seems to drift into anger these days particularly on social media and conversations like this are the complete antithesis of that.

I enjoy it too and it's good practice because I find writing so much harder than talking.

You're a good man though and I appreciate your intelligence, knowledge and opinion.


Apart from that you're wrong you cunt