The Mogg is circling...

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BlackDiamond
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:00 pm

We might imagine that article 50 will have to be extended. Be interesting to see the preferred arrangement. Some peeps imagine July but that time-frame might be optimistic. I could easily see 2020 as a dreamy target. It's a round number,it allows enough time to play games with Brussels and everybody involved can have fun on expenses.

Plus they think we don't really want to leave...
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by palerider » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:08 pm

BlackDiamond wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:00 pm
We might imagine that article 50 will have to be extended. Be interesting to see the preferred arrangement. Some peeps imagine July but that time-frame might be optimistic. I could easily see 2020 as a dreamy target. It's a round number,it allows enough time to play games with Brussels and everybody involved can have fun on expenses.

Plus they think we don't really want to leave...
Barnier has hinted that they'll only extend it if we have a plan.

We haven't. It's a fucking mess.

We could easily leave with no deal which would please some.

Unless Theresa comes up with a plan so cunning, you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:48 pm

h69 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:18 am
terrya1965 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:21 am
Are the MP's thinking,will this Brexit thing work?

I reckon many are thinking it won't and why the massive defeat.Obviously some are hard Brexiteers ,but do the majority probably think that this country will be in big trouble if we leave?
Leave a business negotiation to self-interested politicians and this is what you get.

We should have left with no deal immediately and let businesses negotiate since they actually know how to do it.
Well, most of the old style nationalised industries have been successfully privatised. Perhaps we should privatise the whole political business. It could hardly leave us in a worse mess than this lot are managing. The number of "professional politicians", people who have never run anything more complicated than a fucking hair dryer, seems to bne increasing with every election.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BillyDWhizz » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:50 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:48 pm
h69 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:18 am


Leave a business negotiation to self-interested politicians and this is what you get.

We should have left with no deal immediately and let businesses negotiate since they actually know how to do it.
Well, most of the old style nationalised industries have been successfully privatised. Perhaps we should privatise the whole political business. It could hardly leave us in a worse mess than this lot are managing. The number of "professional politicians", people who have never run anything more complicated than a fucking hair dryer, seems to bne increasing with every election.
Christ, by privatising politics, you may as well buy a flat cap so you can doff it every time the Lord of the Manor comes round to collect his feudal taxes!!

Sorry mate, I cannot disagree with you more. Privatisation has served a wealthy few at the expense of the rest of us - EXACTLY how Maggie wanted it.

I'll use the water sector as an example. In the 30 odd years since privatisation, control is now in the hands of a very few wealthy international investors, some even operating from cosy little tax havens. Prices have increased by over 40% and a QUARTER of the bill YOU, ME and EVERYONE now pays goes straight in to servicing debt interest (Investment is provided by borrowing rather than shareholders) and paying out dividends.

Let's not forget how Maggie nicely wiped out £4.9 Billion of water sector debts for the new owners so they could come in and start up all nice and debt free...What did the private owners do? They took advantage and have racked up debts to the taxpayer currently around the £50 Billion mark, whilst at the same time managing to payout billions in dividends. Three water companies in the past even paid out more money in dividends than their total pre-tax profits...How is that possible unless some poor suckers, somewhere are enabling them too...Oh...wait...That'll be us won't it!?

The National grid is exactly the same , the Post office is fucked, The Steel industry is dead, Public Services companies are fucking us over to the tune of billions every year, The coal industry is non existent, ICI, remember them? A world leader in it's field and jewel in the crown of British industry is now fucking Dutch...I could go on but won't since I'm rapidly approaching rant mode! :lol:

I guess you could call BT a success. If laying off 100,000 workers to re model your business plan is your definition of successful.

You'll notice how I've avoided mentioning the railways... :D
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by h69 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:11 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:48 pm
h69 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:18 am


Leave a business negotiation to self-interested politicians and this is what you get.

We should have left with no deal immediately and let businesses negotiate since they actually know how to do it.
Well, most of the old style nationalised industries have been successfully privatised. Perhaps we should privatise the whole political business. It could hardly leave us in a worse mess than this lot are managing. The number of "professional politicians", people who have never run anything more complicated than a fucking hair dryer, seems to bne increasing with every election.
Not sure I would privatise politics. I would just let the business leaders negotiate Brexit as this is a business negotiation at the end of the day.

As for Privatisation v Nationalisation, thats another story but it is similar to all the people demanding a socialist govt. These people have short memories and see the past in rose tinted glasses. I am old enough to remember the coal and railways when they were owned by the governments and they were shit then as well.

There are pros and cons of both but I would rather have competition and I would rather have incentive based bonuses. As soon as you eliminate competition you demotivate the workforce.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:33 pm

BillyDWhizz wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:50 pm
Whiskyman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:48 pm


Well, most of the old style nationalised industries have been successfully privatised. Perhaps we should privatise the whole political business. It could hardly leave us in a worse mess than this lot are managing. The number of "professional politicians", people who have never run anything more complicated than a fucking hair dryer, seems to bne increasing with every election.
Christ, by privatising politics, you may as well buy a flat cap so you can doff it every time the Lord of the Manor comes round to collect his feudal taxes!!

Sorry mate, I cannot disagree with you more. Privatisation has served a wealthy few at the expense of the rest of us - EXACTLY how Maggie wanted it.

I'll use the water sector as an example. In the 30 odd years since privatisation, control is now in the hands of a very few wealthy international investors, some even operating from cosy little tax havens. Prices have increased by over 40% and a QUARTER of the bill YOU, ME and EVERYONE now pays goes straight in to servicing debt interest (Investment is provided by borrowing rather than shareholders) and paying out dividends.

Let's not forget how Maggie nicely wiped out £4.9 Billion of water sector debts for the new owners so they could come in and start up all nice and debt free...What did the private owners do? They took advantage and have racked up debts to the taxpayer currently around the £50 Billion mark, whilst at the same time managing to payout billions in dividends. Three water companies in the past even paid out more money in dividends than their total pre-tax profits...How is that possible unless some poor suckers, somewhere are enabling them too...Oh...wait...That'll be us won't it!?

The National grid is exactly the same , the Post office is fucked, The Steel industry is dead, Public Services companies are fucking us over to the tune of billions every year, The coal industry is non existent, ICI, remember them? A world leader in it's field and jewel in the crown of British industry is now fucking Dutch...I could go on but won't since I'm rapidly approaching rant mode! :lol:

I guess you could call BT a success. If laying off 100,000 workers to re model your business plan is your definition of successful.

You'll notice how I've avoided mentioning the railways... :D
I could paint a different picture Billy. Obviously I can only speak personally as everyone's circumstances are different.
Water. I have a metered supply, pay bu direct debit and it costs me £20 a month. Can't remember what it was back in the day but, trust me, it wasn't much less than that around 20 years ago.

Gas/Electric. Monthly direct debit costs £90. I shop round every year to check rates and swap supplier if advantageous.
As with water that is cheaper in real terms to what I paid when they were state owned. Partly I believe because I now have a choice of supplier.

Railways. Don't use trains regularly but relative to what they used to cost pre nationalisation taking into consideration inflation it costs me less to get into London off peak than it did back in the day. Day Return now from Welwyn Garden City to West End is £19.10. Admittedly that is off peak. And please don't tell me there weren't delays and cancellations in the privatised era. I used to have to commute into the city by train and did so under nationalisation and the privatised version. The quality of train is now better and faster but I'll happily concede that may also have happened under state ownership. Electrification of our line massively improved the quality of service.

Don't think it's really fair to use steel and coal as examples tbh. Both these products can be sourced much more cheaply from abroad and so it was fairly inevitable those industries would wither and die.

BT's job cuts ? Job cuts happen as the working world evolves. When I started work in the city one of my first jobs was analysing company accounts and giving those company's investment risk ratings. There were around 15 of us doing that. Now an algorithm can do the job much more quickly and probably a lot more accurately. I think it's called progress. ;)

The biggest employer in the UK? Yes, you've guessed it. The fucking NHS. Government run, Is it efficient ? This isn't apolitical point but Our local hospital , the QEII. was closed down by the last Labour administration. Only about 2 or 3 years before that there had been massive expenditure upgrading parts of it. Hardly a good use of taxpayers hard earned is it ?

And on that subject how inefficient is the whole government apparatus that's supposed to be there for our benefit ? Just one example. If you have kids you get child benefit. Fair enough. But why have one department,HMRC,taking the money from you as tax, and another giving you some of it back as a child benefit? Why not simply change your tax code and let you keep the equivalent in your salary cheque?

Now I'm in rant mode. And I guess we'll never agree. ;)
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:00 pm

This... https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... aret-hodge
... is what privatisation is really about. Don't believe the 'better deal for consumers' lie that's floated out every time.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BillyDWhizz » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:33 pm
BillyDWhizz wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:50 pm


Christ, by privatising politics, you may as well buy a flat cap so you can doff it every time the Lord of the Manor comes round to collect his feudal taxes!!

Sorry mate, I cannot disagree with you more. Privatisation has served a wealthy few at the expense of the rest of us - EXACTLY how Maggie wanted it.

I'll use the water sector as an example. In the 30 odd years since privatisation, control is now in the hands of a very few wealthy international investors, some even operating from cosy little tax havens. Prices have increased by over 40% and a QUARTER of the bill YOU, ME and EVERYONE now pays goes straight in to servicing debt interest (Investment is provided by borrowing rather than shareholders) and paying out dividends.

Let's not forget how Maggie nicely wiped out £4.9 Billion of water sector debts for the new owners so they could come in and start up all nice and debt free...What did the private owners do? They took advantage and have racked up debts to the taxpayer currently around the £50 Billion mark, whilst at the same time managing to payout billions in dividends. Three water companies in the past even paid out more money in dividends than their total pre-tax profits...How is that possible unless some poor suckers, somewhere are enabling them too...Oh...wait...That'll be us won't it!?

The National grid is exactly the same , the Post office is fucked, The Steel industry is dead, Public Services companies are fucking us over to the tune of billions every year, The coal industry is non existent, ICI, remember them? A world leader in it's field and jewel in the crown of British industry is now fucking Dutch...I could go on but won't since I'm rapidly approaching rant mode! :lol:

I guess you could call BT a success. If laying off 100,000 workers to re model your business plan is your definition of successful.

You'll notice how I've avoided mentioning the railways... :D
I could paint a different picture Billy. Obviously I can only speak personally as everyone's circumstances are different.
Water. I have a metered supply, pay bu direct debit and it costs me £20 a month. Can't remember what it was back in the day but, trust me, it wasn't much less than that around 20 years ago.

Gas/Electric. Monthly direct debit costs £90. I shop round every year to check rates and swap supplier if advantageous.
As with water that is cheaper in real terms to what I paid when they were state owned. Partly I believe because I now have a choice of supplier.

Railways. Don't use trains regularly but relative to what they used to cost pre nationalisation taking into consideration inflation it costs me less to get into London off peak than it did back in the day. Day Return now from Welwyn Garden City to West End is £19.10. Admittedly that is off peak. And please don't tell me there weren't delays and cancellations in the privatised era. I used to have to commute into the city by train and did so under nationalisation and the privatised version. The quality of train is now better and faster but I'll happily concede that may also have happened under state ownership. Electrification of our line massively improved the quality of service.

Don't think it's really fair to use steel and coal as examples tbh. Both these products can be sourced much more cheaply from abroad and so it was fairly inevitable those industries would wither and die.

BT's job cuts ? Job cuts happen as the working world evolves. When I started work in the city one of my first jobs was analysing company accounts and giving those company's investment risk ratings. There were around 15 of us doing that. Now an algorithm can do the job much more quickly and probably a lot more accurately. I think it's called progress. ;)

The biggest employer in the UK? Yes, you've guessed it. The fucking NHS. Government run, Is it efficient ? This isn't apolitical point but Our local hospital , the QEII. was closed down by the last Labour administration. Only about 2 or 3 years before that there had been massive expenditure upgrading parts of it. Hardly a good use of taxpayers hard earned is it ?

And on that subject how inefficient is the whole government apparatus that's supposed to be there for our benefit ? Just one example. If you have kids you get child benefit. Fair enough. But why have one department,HMRC,taking the money from you as tax, and another giving you some of it back as a child benefit? Why not simply change your tax code and let you keep the equivalent in your salary cheque?

Now I'm in rant mode. And I guess we'll never agree. ;)
What you pay for your water (although I'd be fucking happy at £20!) and utilities isn't really what I'm getting at, It's WHERE the money is going that should be getting your back up. After interest repayments and shareholder dividends do you think that the majority of that money is being ploughed back in to the UK economy? No of course it isn't, it's fucking off abroad.

£50 Billion of debt to the taxpayer is not insignificant yet who's paying it back? No one that's who. I must imagine the Gas & Electric companies are probably on the hook for similar amounts.

Just think what the real figure is when you add in the railways and the likes of Carillion, Interserve and a myriad of others copping for taxpayer funded bail/handouts. Even erring on the side of caution, that's hundreds and hundreds of Billions that's owed to the country that absolutely no cunt has any intention of ever paying back and yet we've been put through years of austerity 'coz apparently the country can't afford stuff. No shit!

The NHS is a tricky one because whilst it is officially a publicly owned entity, in all reality it isn't. Privatisation is slowly and insidiously encroaching like Japanese Knotweed in to an English country garden. It's become an all consuming behemoth that must have a supply chain that can only be described as a logistical shit storm - It doesn't help that the decision making process in the higher corporate rather than medical echelons are fucking woeful and are probably to blame for most of the NHS's financial woes.

I can see a time in the very near future when it'll be something like this..."Oh little Johnny's broken his arm? No problem, just swipe your Virgin preferred customer card in this machine and well have him fixed right up. OK? Great. That'll be £3759 + Vat Thanks. Oh don't forget to check your Virgin app and claim the 12 free airmiles that Johnny's mishap has earnt you. That's it? Ok, Thanks, have a nice day."

I'm being fly of course but full NHS privatisation IS coming if we all bury our heads and fucking let it. I do agree with you that it's inefficient but to privatise it doesn't bare thinking about.

You'll get no argument from me about bureaucratic red tape re HMRC etc though.

Anyhoo, I digress, sorry mate but the upshot is that I believe privatisation has been a fucking sham, cleverly worded and implemented to make us all think that it's great for everyone. No. No it isn't, It's been absolutely brilliant for a few and very cleverly hoodwinked the many in to thinking it's been brilliant for them.

What's next? The Royal Virgin Airforce? The G4S Army? :lol:
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BillyDWhizz » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:03 pm

So May survives the vote of no confidence ONLY because the DUP allowed her to do so. Arlene Foster is our defacto PM since May is completely and utterly powerless without her. That's democracy for ya. How many of you voted for the DUP eh? :lol:
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by terrya1965 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:42 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:33 pm
BillyDWhizz wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:50 pm


Christ, by privatising politics, you may as well buy a flat cap so you can doff it every time the Lord of the Manor comes round to collect his feudal taxes!!

Sorry mate, I cannot disagree with you more. Privatisation has served a wealthy few at the expense of the rest of us - EXACTLY how Maggie wanted it.

I'll use the water sector as an example. In the 30 odd years since privatisation, control is now in the hands of a very few wealthy international investors, some even operating from cosy little tax havens. Prices have increased by over 40% and a QUARTER of the bill YOU, ME and EVERYONE now pays goes straight in to servicing debt interest (Investment is provided by borrowing rather than shareholders) and paying out dividends.

Let's not forget how Maggie nicely wiped out £4.9 Billion of water sector debts for the new owners so they could come in and start up all nice and debt free...What did the private owners do? They took advantage and have racked up debts to the taxpayer currently around the £50 Billion mark, whilst at the same time managing to payout billions in dividends. Three water companies in the past even paid out more money in dividends than their total pre-tax profits...How is that possible unless some poor suckers, somewhere are enabling them too...Oh...wait...That'll be us won't it!?

The National grid is exactly the same , the Post office is fucked, The Steel industry is dead, Public Services companies are fucking us over to the tune of billions every year, The coal industry is non existent, ICI, remember them? A world leader in it's field and jewel in the crown of British industry is now fucking Dutch...I could go on but won't since I'm rapidly approaching rant mode! :lol:

I guess you could call BT a success. If laying off 100,000 workers to re model your business plan is your definition of successful.

You'll notice how I've avoided mentioning the railways... :D
I could paint a different picture Billy. Obviously I can only speak personally as everyone's circumstances are different.
Water. I have a metered supply, pay bu direct debit and it costs me £20 a month. Can't remember what it was back in the day but, trust me, it wasn't much less than that around 20 years ago.

Gas/Electric. Monthly direct debit costs £90. I shop round every year to check rates and swap supplier if advantageous.
As with water that is cheaper in real terms to what I paid when they were state owned. Partly I believe because I now have a choice of supplier.

Railways. Don't use trains regularly but relative to what they used to cost pre nationalisation taking into consideration inflation it costs me less to get into London off peak than it did back in the day. Day Return now from Welwyn Garden City to West End is £19.10. Admittedly that is off peak. And please don't tell me there weren't delays and cancellations in the privatised era. I used to have to commute into the city by train and did so under nationalisation and the privatised version. The quality of train is now better and faster but I'll happily concede that may also have happened under state ownership. Electrification of our line massively improved the quality of service.

Don't think it's really fair to use steel and coal as examples tbh. Both these products can be sourced much more cheaply from abroad and so it was fairly inevitable those industries would wither and die.

BT's job cuts ? Job cuts happen as the working world evolves. When I started work in the city one of my first jobs was analysing company accounts and giving those company's investment risk ratings. There were around 15 of us doing that. Now an algorithm can do the job much more quickly and probably a lot more accurately. I think it's called progress. ;)

The biggest employer in the UK? Yes, you've guessed it. The fucking NHS. Government run, Is it efficient ? This isn't apolitical point but Our local hospital , the QEII. was closed down by the last Labour administration. Only about 2 or 3 years before that there had been massive expenditure upgrading parts of it. Hardly a good use of taxpayers hard earned is it ?

And on that subject how inefficient is the whole government apparatus that's supposed to be there for our benefit ? Just one example. If you have kids you get child benefit. Fair enough. But why have one department,HMRC,taking the money from you as tax, and another giving you some of it back as a child benefit? Why not simply change your tax code and let you keep the equivalent in your salary cheque?

Now I'm in rant mode. And I guess we'll never agree. ;)
30 years ago,my rates were £2.97 per week,that included water and council tax.So that is £11.88 per month.

Combining both now,it`s nearly £200.ENOUGH SAID.Even taking inflation in to account,that`s an insult.

Utility bills have tripled in price just in the past 20 years.Only fags and booze have gone up more.Let`s not forget these are essentials that we have to have.Pensioners can`t afford to heat their homes,while some fat cat(or cunt) is buying himself another yacht in the Bahamas.

Did you know before any of these were privatised,Thatcher cleared all debts(paid by the good old taxpayer),so Shareholders made a better profit.We will take one example.Water was privatised at a £4.9 Billion loss and the whole lot was paid up by the taxpayer.
Guess what?
They are now £50 odd Billion in debt.

Whiskeyman,I know many maybe not has bright has you on here,but don`t insult our intelligence by pretending we are all better off because of privatisation.It`s a dishonest con,that has made the rich,stinking filthy rich.
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