The Mogg is circling...

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Whiskyman
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:09 pm

BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:38 pm
palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:57 am


I disagree.

The argument that we didn't know what we were voting for gives the impression the the electorate were imbeciles. I think the country is a damn-sight more tuned in than Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry and Gina Miller realise.

And in any case. The democratic vote didn't say 'please read the small print' on the ballot paper. The result was close but it matters not if it was won by a single vote after 25 re-counts.

Leave won.

So Remain should not be on the table IF there is a second referendum.

You can have a variety of Norway, Canada, name any other country.....or No Deal.

But not Remain.

It's like buying a top player then saying 'You never told us he was going to be shit'.
Philip Hammond via The Telegraph has told business executives that no-deal Brexit will be stopped and that article 50 could be rescinded. This suggests that article 50 will be extended and used as a “sort of ultimate backstop if the work the government is doing in seeking to find a way forward fails to deliver”

We can see where the ducks are lining up.
Didn't see Hammond's comments tbh but if that is the case that fucking woman needs to shout it out loud and clear so that business, the markets and the population at large know what the hell is going on. It makes absolute economic sense to rule out a no deal and if it means losing a few loonies from the Conservative party so be it. As a Conservative voter myself it will be no great loss to the party. Such a statement would also box Corbyn into a corner which would be no bad thing as I don't believe anyone wants to see him anywhere near No 10, however much of a lame duck PM the present occupant is.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:51 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:09 pm
BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:38 pm

Philip Hammond via The Telegraph has told business executives that no-deal Brexit will be stopped and that article 50 could be rescinded. This suggests that article 50 will be extended and used as a “sort of ultimate backstop if the work the government is doing in seeking to find a way forward fails to deliver”

We can see where the ducks are lining up.
Didn't see Hammond's comments tbh but if that is the case that fucking woman needs to shout it out loud and clear so that business, the markets and the population at large know what the hell is going on. It makes absolute economic sense to rule out a no deal and if it means losing a few loonies from the Conservative party so be it. As a Conservative voter myself it will be no great loss to the party. Such a statement would also box Corbyn into a corner which would be no bad thing as I don't believe anyone wants to see him anywhere near No 10, however much of a lame duck PM the present occupant is.
The comments were taken from a web conference intercept which is pretty much from the horses mouth.Spreadsheet Phil has ambitions which is why his ducks are lining up nicely. Jeremy is playing his own game but that looks more isolated the more he tells everyone what he thinks.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Hornchurch Hammer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:23 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

This is why article 50 will have to be extended.The no deal scenario will not be sanctioned. It's a tidy mess and unfortunately the PM is not an individual with any charismatic influence on proceedings.

You would think in a political vacuum,a natural leader would emerge.
Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
So 30% vote option 1, 32% vote option 2 but we leave because 38% voted option 3??

Ridiculous suggestion, you can’t have a referendum that splits the leave vote but it is a typical “remainer” ploy.

If there is to be a 3rd peoples vote it should be the same question that faced parliament. Leave on Mays deal or with no deal. This is the only viable question.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:51 am

Hornchurch Hammer wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:23 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am


Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
So 30% vote option 1, 32% vote option 2 but we leave because 38% voted option 3??

Ridiculous suggestion, you can’t have a referendum that splits the leave vote but it is a typical “remainer” ploy.

If there is to be a 3rd peoples vote it should be the same question that faced parliament. Leave on Mays deal or with no deal. This is the only viable question.

I think you underestimate the intelligence of the electorate. I believe if those 3 options were available it would offer much more clarity than the ridiculous black or white option we were given in 2016 and would, effectively, ensure an "orderly withdrawal". Many who voted remain, at least amongst my circle of friends, would switch to leave once they knew exactle what they were voting for, which, if they voted to accept May's deal they of course would because it is in black and white, There would, I am certain, be absolutely no support to speak of for "no deal" mainly because no one actually knows what that would mean. Apart of course from the fact that the CBI and the Trade Union movement, not normally singing from the same hymn sheet, both agree it would be the height of stupidity to do so.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Hornchurch Hammer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:53 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:51 am
Hornchurch Hammer wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:23 am


So 30% vote option 1, 32% vote option 2 but we leave because 38% voted option 3??

Ridiculous suggestion, you can’t have a referendum that splits the leave vote but it is a typical “remainer” ploy.

If there is to be a 3rd peoples vote it should be the same question that faced parliament. Leave on Mays deal or with no deal. This is the only viable question.

I think you underestimate the intelligence of the electorate. I believe if those 3 options were available it would offer much more clarity than the ridiculous black or white option we were given in 2016 and would, effectively, ensure an "orderly withdrawal". Many who voted remain, at least amongst my circle of friends, would switch to leave once they knew exactle what they were voting for, which, if they voted to accept May's deal they of course would because it is in black and white, There would, I am certain, be absolutely no support to speak of for "no deal" mainly because no one actually knows what that would mean. Apart of course from the fact that the CBI and the Trade Union movement, not normally singing from the same hymn sheet, both agree it would be the height of stupidity to do so.

It’s funny, I’ve never heard a single person who voted leave ask for another vote as “we didn’t know what we was voting for” it’s always the remainers telling us we was too dense to understand the issue and we should vote again.
Democracy would already have taken a bit of a kicking if we have to go back to the polls without enacting the result of the 1st referendum, do you think if more people voted to leave in one form or another but we actually remained that they would go away quietly? I do not.
Better to pull the plaster off, leave with “no deal” it’s only a starting point remember. And see how quickly deals get done.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:45 am

Hornchurch Hammer wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:53 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:51 am



I think you underestimate the intelligence of the electorate. I believe if those 3 options were available it would offer much more clarity than the ridiculous black or white option we were given in 2016 and would, effectively, ensure an "orderly withdrawal". Many who voted remain, at least amongst my circle of friends, would switch to leave once they knew exactle what they were voting for, which, if they voted to accept May's deal they of course would because it is in black and white, There would, I am certain, be absolutely no support to speak of for "no deal" mainly because no one actually knows what that would mean. Apart of course from the fact that the CBI and the Trade Union movement, not normally singing from the same hymn sheet, both agree it would be the height of stupidity to do so.

It’s funny, I’ve never heard a single person who voted leave ask for another vote as “we didn’t know what we was voting for” it’s always the remainers telling us we was too dense to understand the issue and we should vote again.
Democracy would already have taken a bit of a kicking if we have to go back to the polls without enacting the result of the 1st referendum, do you think if more people voted to leave in one form or another but we actually remained that they would go away quietly? I do not.
Better to pull the plaster off, leave with “no deal” it’s only a starting point remember. And see how quickly deals get done.
I would have much more confidence in deals being done quickly if politicians, on all sides of the house and in both leave or remain camps, and let business leaders get on with the job of sorting out the mess. They won't, so I haven't.

As for democracy taking a kicking imo that happens every election. Even Blair's massive majority of MP's was a minority government in the sense that more people voted against him than for him when the total votes cast are added up. If democracy means having a majority of 179 when less than 44% of the votes were cast for him I'm a fucking Chinaman.

And what about the vast numbers of people who voted UKIP who only had a single voice in the house after the election Cameron won ? And he was an MP who was elected on the Tory platform but defected during the parliamentary term.
57 SNP MP's voted for by around 1.5 million people, Zero UKIP MP's despite nearly 3.5 million votes for that party.

Democracy my fucking arse.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Hornchurch Hammer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:36 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:45 am
Hornchurch Hammer wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:53 am



It’s funny, I’ve never heard a single person who voted leave ask for another vote as “we didn’t know what we was voting for” it’s always the remainers telling us we was too dense to understand the issue and we should vote again.
Democracy would already have taken a bit of a kicking if we have to go back to the polls without enacting the result of the 1st referendum, do you think if more people voted to leave in one form or another but we actually remained that they would go away quietly? I do not.
Better to pull the plaster off, leave with “no deal” it’s only a starting point remember. And see how quickly deals get done.
I would have much more confidence in deals being done quickly if politicians, on all sides of the house and in both leave or remain camps, and let business leaders get on with the job of sorting out the mess. They won't, so I haven't.

As for democracy taking a kicking imo that happens every election. Even Blair's massive majority of MP's was a minority government in the sense that more people voted against him than for him when the total votes cast are added up. If democracy means having a majority of 179 when less than 44% of the votes were cast for him I'm a fucking Chinaman.

And what about the vast numbers of people who voted UKIP who only had a single voice in the house after the election Cameron won ? And he was an MP who was elected on the Tory platform but defected during the parliamentary term.
57 SNP MP's voted for by around 1.5 million people, Zero UKIP MP's despite nearly 3.5 million votes for that party.

Democracy my fucking arse.

Your point about Blair etc is excellent and I’m gonna nick it and use it as my own 😄

Re Business, I tend to think they are cut from the same self serving cloth as politicians however I do agree with you that they should be far more involved in doing deals, but they won’t, because they think there is a chance of the referendum being overturned (encouraged by the Remainer government) so the CBI etc run around saying the sky’s falling down instead of being constructive.
Do the hard Brexit and you will see a significantly different attitude, deals will be done quickly and they will be good deals for each side.
I don’t subscribe to the old bollocks that they need us more than we need them , I think we need each other, we outspent every country in Europe holidaying in Spain and Portugal etc, we buy more German cars than any other European country (excluding Germany obv) and we chug a ton of French and Italian wine. Doing a deal with this spending power will be easy. Don’t forget the EU has something like 27 free trade agreements with non EU countries. Why do you think think they won’t offer us one?
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Marco Boogers Boots » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:07 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

This is why article 50 will have to be extended.The no deal scenario will not be sanctioned. It's a tidy mess and unfortunately the PM is not an individual with any charismatic influence on proceedings.

You would think in a political vacuum,a natural leader would emerge.
Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
A referendum with the three options mentioned is pretty much guaranteed to mean a victory for remain.

Hypothetical, but even with people switching sides over the last three years the split will be about the same for leave and remain. The three options laid out will simply split the leave vote, meaning a share of 52% each for No Deal and May's Deal and Remain as the "clear winner" on 48% or there about.

Like you, I voted remain (just about, it was close either way) - but in this scenario I could see why leave would be very, very pissed off. In fact, I honestly believe a 3 way referendum like this would see civil unrest on a huge scale, I hope it doesn't come to that.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:15 am

Marco Boogers Boots wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:07 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am


Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
A referendum with the three options mentioned is pretty much guaranteed to mean a victory for remain.

Hypothetical, but even with people switching sides over the last three years the split will be about the same for leave and remain. The three options laid out will simply split the leave vote, meaning a share of 52% each for No Deal and May's Deal and Remain as the "clear winner" on 48% or there about.

Like you, I voted remain (just about, it was close either way) - but in this scenario I could see why leave would be very, very pissed off. In fact, I honestly believe a 3 way referendum like this would see civil unrest on a huge scale, I hope it doesn't come to that.
I can see your logic of course but my belief is that the electorate isn't dumb. I think most leavers realise that a no deal at all option would be an advantage to absolutely no9 one and would, therefore, go with the "May's deal" option. Furthermore I suspect a considerable number of remain voters would switch to that option because it would be a choice which enabled :seamless trade" to continue without the actual knot tying the UK irrevecably to the EU.

I voted remain because the option given to us, in or out, was imo far too simplistic. As we have now seen it was never going to be that simple and I felt the economy would suffer if we pulled out. The May option is the nearest thing rhat will give us the best of both worlds imo.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:13 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.c ... s-11614002

From the horse's mouth.
And there are still a lot of politicians using this situation to advance their own agendas.
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