The Mogg is circling...

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kingclyde
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by kingclyde » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:26 am

I’ve been following this thread with interest.

And it seems to underline the fact that we view things according to our own prejudices.

Nev, you decry the “little Englander” mentality that led many to vote to leave the EU. Yet in the same breath, you also decry the ownership of British companies being in the hands of “foreigners".

I’m afraid you can’t have your cake and eat it mate.

Being in a borderless, free-movement, federalist-targeted group like the EU leads to foreign ownership.

For example the reason many French companies buy British ones is that it is far easier to make a profit in the UK than in France. Labour laws are more lenient, the employment market far more dynamic, the workforce less inflexible, the tax rates lower, the social charges a tiny fraction of those an employer pays in France, and last but not least, the level of state interference and beaurocracy in the UK is miniscule compared to the EU states I have had first hand experience of.

So the very act of making Britain a good place for entrepreneurs means, de facto, that anyone else in the same trading bloc can take advantage of those significant advantages. And they do.

As far as the OP goes…

There seems to be a suggestion on this thread that Venezuela is in some way the innocent victim of a bullying USA, and has been bled dry by “the West” for their own ends.

The country has had a left wing, anti-US government for many decades. It has been run like some socialist experiment for years, but really went to shit in the most dramatic way under Chavez, who was the most vehemently left wing, populist, anti US, socialist dictator imaginable.

Chavez relied entirely on oil revenue. He spent money the country did not have, assuming the price of oil would continually increase and fund his uncontrolled spending.

Then the oil price tumbled. And the country went down the toilet.

He seized control of foreign companies, nationalised everything in sight, gagged the media, curtailed free speech. And he printed more money. Lots more money. Now, a 12 year old school pupil knows that the result of that is rampant inflation. The result of his mismanagement was inflation measured in the thousands percent. Dramatic devaluation of the currency. Lack of foreign investment (who would invest in a country where the leader simply seizes your business and your assets and throws you out the country).

Then he died. Maduro takes office, and does precisely the same as his predecessor – in some ways even worse. It does not take long to find out about the El Helicoide building – a shopping mall turned into a prison for opponents of the regime. It is shocking.

The country is positive proof that rabble rousing populist leaders – even those on the left - do not guarantee good financial judgement or management. Never have to my knowledge. Take note all you Corbynistas.

Venezuela’s plight has nothing whatever to do with American meddling.

Their problems are those which have always resulted from a dalliance with hard-line theoretical left-wing policy. Rabid centralisation of power, poor management, lack of independent advice, the flight of the intelligentsia and the experts on whom a nation relies for global judgement. It always leads to a fucking mess that is suffered by the very people whose support the leaders relied on to gain power in the first place.

No amount of university debating society theory, or speakers corner rhetoric, or indeed Corbynite wishful thinking, will make it work.

Uncontrolled Capitalism is a dreadful way to run a society. Uncontrolled Socialism, or Marxism, or Communism – or any structure which eagerly seeks to centralise - is every bit as bad. What works – and is the only form of government that has proved to be successful for the majority for a stable period of time – is a mix of ideas, allowing for the encouragement and protection of the entrepreneur, for the fair employment of those who wish to work, and for the protection of the weak and vulnerable.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:06 am

kingclyde wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:26 am
I’ve been following this thread with interest.

And it seems to underline the fact that we view things according to our own prejudices.

Nev, you decry the “little Englander” mentality that led many to vote to leave the EU. Yet in the same breath, you also decry the ownership of British companies being in the hands of “foreigners".

I’m afraid you can’t have your cake and eat it mate.

Being in a borderless, free-movement, federalist-targeted group like the EU leads to foreign ownership.

For example the reason many French companies buy British ones is that it is far easier to make a profit in the UK than in France. Labour laws are more lenient, the employment market far more dynamic, the workforce less inflexible, the tax rates lower, the social charges a tiny fraction of those an employer pays in France, and last but not least, the level of state interference and beaurocracy in the UK is miniscule compared to the EU states I have had first hand experience of.

So the very act of making Britain a good place for entrepreneurs means, de facto, that anyone else in the same trading bloc can take advantage of those significant advantages. And they do.

As far as the OP goes…

There seems to be a suggestion on this thread that Venezuela is in some way the innocent victim of a bullying USA, and has been bled dry by “the West” for their own ends.

The country has had a left wing, anti-US government for many decades. It has been run like some socialist experiment for years, but really went to shit in the most dramatic way under Chavez, who was the most vehemently left wing, populist, anti US, socialist dictator imaginable.

Chavez relied entirely on oil revenue. He spent money the country did not have, assuming the price of oil would continually increase and fund his uncontrolled spending.

Then the oil price tumbled. And the country went down the toilet.

He seized control of foreign companies, nationalised everything in sight, gagged the media, curtailed free speech. And he printed more money. Lots more money. Now, a 12 year old school pupil knows that the result of that is rampant inflation. The result of his mismanagement was inflation measured in the thousands percent. Dramatic devaluation of the currency. Lack of foreign investment (who would invest in a country where the leader simply seizes your business and your assets and throws you out the country).

Then he died. Maduro takes office, and does precisely the same as his predecessor – in some ways even worse. It does not take long to find out about the El Helicoide building – a shopping mall turned into a prison for opponents of the regime. It is shocking.

The country is positive proof that rabble rousing populist leaders – even those on the left - do not guarantee good financial judgement or management. Never have to my knowledge. Take note all you Corbynistas.

Venezuela’s plight has nothing whatever to do with American meddling.

Their problems are those which have always resulted from a dalliance with hard-line theoretical left-wing policy. Rabid centralisation of power, poor management, lack of independent advice, the flight of the intelligentsia and the experts on whom a nation relies for global judgement. It always leads to a fucking mess that is suffered by the very people whose support the leaders relied on to gain power in the first place.

No amount of university debating society theory, or speakers corner rhetoric, or indeed Corbynite wishful thinking, will make it work.

Uncontrolled Capitalism is a dreadful way to run a society. Uncontrolled Socialism, or Marxism, or Communism – or any structure which eagerly seeks to centralise - is every bit as bad. What works – and is the only form of government that has proved to be successful for the majority for a stable period of time – is a mix of ideas, allowing for the encouragement and protection of the entrepreneur, for the fair employment of those who wish to work, and for the protection of the weak and vulnerable.
And what we mean by Capitalism needs to be defined. At it's best and we should always want the best; it means a mixture of free market and regulation,because somethings have to be regulated,because the market won't take care of them, like pollution,because the market won't put a price on the atmosphere because nobody owns the atmosphere.
Likewise social spending for the children,the elderly,the unlucky etc.

So the discussion about Capitalism is really about ratio's between the market and regulation.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by kingclyde » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:21 am

BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:06 am

And what we mean by Capitalism needs to be defined. At it's best and we should always want the best; it means a mixture of free market and regulation,because somethings have to be regulated,because the market won't take care of them, like pollution,because the market won't put a price on the atmosphere because nobody owns the atmosphere.
Likewise social spending for the children,the elderly,the unlucky etc.

So the discussion about Capitalism is really about ratio's between the market and regulation.
Yep, sorry, you are spot on. I think maybe I should have used the term "Free Market" rather than Capitalism. An uncontrolled free market is always going to lead to exploitation and monopoly. What matters is ensuring the minimum level of intervention possible to ensure adequate protections without impeding those who create wealth and employment. I do think the balance in the UK is pretty good right now compared to other countries I have had experience of. Apart from the disgusting Zero Hours Contracts, which should be outlawed, and those insisting on using them horsewhipped in public.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:02 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:13 pm
mkhammer wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:48 pm



Nev,I honestly don't know the Answer...but the prob is and I agree partly with you is we have,
65% of MPs wanting remain, representing 65% of constituencies that voted leave.
So we have to ask do we let MPs dictate and over rule a Public mandate that is now law,because
this... wrong deal/shit deal...this deal,that deal, is crap.....if people can't see the agenda on "all sides"
of the house is to some way, stop us leaving,and scrap Brexit.....
Nobody wants a deal...Leave or remain...it's a fuck off Euro we're off, or a stay as we are,
there's no meaningful in between.
The Labour party have diddly interest in Brexit.....they to a man are against ANY deal....so much
so that they are now irrelevant in the process...
May just needs to get the 100 or so Brexit means Brexit guys in her own party,and the unionists,
behind a deal,and just be concerned with getting something thru that way.
I honestly can't see how you can dig May out for this......talk about a Rock and a Hard place...
she has absolutely no where to go with it....absolutely none,I honestly think she's sticking
with her no deal is better than a crap deal statement..which she has never moved from...by
leaving something in,that made it impossible to get thru parliament,cos rest of it was not
in our best interests.

The EU bods have known all along the situation in our Parliament...the Stance of the So called
"Labour Party"and the hard line Tories, that May couldn't get any deal thru....I Agree the whole
"deal"thing has been a waste of time.

Corbyn is as politically astute as fuckin rabbit.....What shocked me in the Referendum,and the reason
it went thru was because of the support of Labour strong holds in the NE/NW...Midlands/
It Wasn't the Tory vote got a leave vote thru, it was a Labour vote...blokes an idiot...Majority of Labour
voters want to leave and he's trying to prevent it by doing his best to stop it.

Laugh at this all you want Mogg is far more popular than Corbyn...

Still since when did Labour every do the right thing politically...
Where do you get 65% from? No mandate was given on the kind of Brexit, and therein lies the problem.
Instead of setting up a commission to look into different kinds of Brexit, we just go ahead and activate article 50 with no plan, no data, no research, no recommendations and no mandate for the kind of Brexit the public wants. Madness.
It's this incompetence, and NOTHING else, that is causing all the issues. If the public had voted on things like joining the EEA or common market membership at least there'd be no grey areas.
I don't think there's much doubt that a majority of the voting public would prefer a soft Brexit.
All remainers would prefer that and a percentage of leavers too.

How can I dig May out? You can't be serious?
It was her government that triggered article 50.
She turned on the countdown timer with no plan in place, has flip flopped between hard and soft, has been held to ransom by the DUP, by the ERG, and by remainers.
And let's be clear, she CHOSE to put herself in that spot between the rock and the hard place.
So should I be digging out her utter, utter incompetence? Absolutely.
As far as Corbyn is concerned, he's probably as useless as May, but he's not a remainer.
A cleverer PM might've included him, played up to his ego, and got him onside.
But as it stands Mrs May is handing out peerages, knighthoods, and billions of pounds to win votes and still she gets stuffed.

Mogg is more popular than Corbyn? Sometimes I worry about you, mate. :lol:

Labour gave us the NHS, which is the most meaningful thing politicians have done for this country in most of our lifetimes.
Oh, and wasn't the minimum wage Labour too?
We're not all rich blokes like you, mate. ;)

70% of Tory Constituencies voted to leave....something just over 60% of Labour held voted leave.
I reckon somewhere in the region of 65% of MPs would have voted remain....Hence why I said
what I said......DO they represent their Constituencies or themselves...that's the question,
Because the 65 % Remainers in the house aren't pushing for a deal where we leave,they are
seeking a "Deal" where we remain,and are trying to fob us off with their acceptable deal crap.

Trouble is mate you come at this because of your hatred of the Tories,it's very evident....
Unfortunately you need an open mind on this sorta thing to see the big picture,hating something
blinkers you.
There was a vote...given to the public which was a promise in a winning Tory Manifesto...
Because of a swelling of pubic opinion on the EU situation....it's called democracy by the way..
Do you want to leave or remain in the EU....simple leave or remain....it's not possible
to put a 300 hundred page white paper out with all the ins and outs of it to be voted on.
We voted to leave...rightly or wrongly.....

It was put to the house that we need to trigger Article 50......"Parliament" Agreed.. not the Tories
who where mainly remainers but the whole house....SNP/Libs,Dup..independents.

FFS Nev Brexit is not a Tory Plan..
Not gonna repeat my views on Mays situation.....we just disagree, I get it no worries.

What does piss me off, not just you is this Tory "Rich Man" shit....FFs Mate belongs in the 1920s.
It's the working Classes that Vote the Tories in ...not your local Billionaire....go and ask your friends
and neighbours who they vote for.

I'm the son of a London Window Cleaner,who brought his kids this way to work in
Lutons Car industry for a better life....I started life as a floor layer....
My dad was a Labour man...my Grandad who was a big influence,on me..was a member of the
communist party...
Yet you think because I believe the best way for the working classes to have a better deal,is
for a Free Market Economy,Low direct taxation..etc.
I have to be wealthy......it's ridiculous..your better than that mate...
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by jameskel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:41 pm

And now the "man of the people", doffs his cap to Theresa. Huge sigh of relief, he will never be in charge of the country
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:38 pm

kingclyde wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:26 am
I’ve been following this thread with interest.

And it seems to underline the fact that we view things according to our own prejudices.

Nev, you decry the “little Englander” mentality that led many to vote to leave the EU. Yet in the same breath, you also decry the ownership of British companies being in the hands of “foreigners".

I’m afraid you can’t have your cake and eat it mate.

Being in a borderless, free-movement, federalist-targeted group like the EU leads to foreign ownership.

For example the reason many French companies buy British ones is that it is far easier to make a profit in the UK than in France. Labour laws are more lenient, the employment market far more dynamic, the workforce less inflexible, the tax rates lower, the social charges a tiny fraction of those an employer pays in France, and last but not least, the level of state interference and beaurocracy in the UK is miniscule compared to the EU states I have had first hand experience of.

So the very act of making Britain a good place for entrepreneurs means, de facto, that anyone else in the same trading bloc can take advantage of those significant advantages. And they do.

As far as the OP goes…

There seems to be a suggestion on this thread that Venezuela is in some way the innocent victim of a bullying USA, and has been bled dry by “the West” for their own ends.

The country has had a left wing, anti-US government for many decades. It has been run like some socialist experiment for years, but really went to shit in the most dramatic way under Chavez, who was the most vehemently left wing, populist, anti US, socialist dictator imaginable.

Chavez relied entirely on oil revenue. He spent money the country did not have, assuming the price of oil would continually increase and fund his uncontrolled spending.

Then the oil price tumbled. And the country went down the toilet.

He seized control of foreign companies, nationalised everything in sight, gagged the media, curtailed free speech. And he printed more money. Lots more money. Now, a 12 year old school pupil knows that the result of that is rampant inflation. The result of his mismanagement was inflation measured in the thousands percent. Dramatic devaluation of the currency. Lack of foreign investment (who would invest in a country where the leader simply seizes your business and your assets and throws you out the country).

Then he died. Maduro takes office, and does precisely the same as his predecessor – in some ways even worse. It does not take long to find out about the El Helicoide building – a shopping mall turned into a prison for opponents of the regime. It is shocking.

The country is positive proof that rabble rousing populist leaders – even those on the left - do not guarantee good financial judgement or management. Never have to my knowledge. Take note all you Corbynistas.

Venezuela’s plight has nothing whatever to do with American meddling.

Their problems are those which have always resulted from a dalliance with hard-line theoretical left-wing policy. Rabid centralisation of power, poor management, lack of independent advice, the flight of the intelligentsia and the experts on whom a nation relies for global judgement. It always leads to a fucking mess that is suffered by the very people whose support the leaders relied on to gain power in the first place.

No amount of university debating society theory, or speakers corner rhetoric, or indeed Corbynite wishful thinking, will make it work.

Uncontrolled Capitalism is a dreadful way to run a society. Uncontrolled Socialism, or Marxism, or Communism – or any structure which eagerly seeks to centralise - is every bit as bad. What works – and is the only form of government that has proved to be successful for the majority for a stable period of time – is a mix of ideas, allowing for the encouragement and protection of the entrepreneur, for the fair employment of those who wish to work, and for the protection of the weak and vulnerable.
Hello Clyde, mate. Always good to have another voice in these political threads.

I think anyone sensible would take the little Englander attitude with a pinch of salt. There are some reasonable -- non economic -- reasons for wanting to punt the EU into touch. You'd need to be a proper europhile to dispute that.
Personally, if we left on the same terms as Norway, I'd not bemoan that.

Foreign ownership is a different matter though. It's not about nationalism, but rather the naked, unfettered profiteering our politicians are prepared to allow.
There's not much entrepreneurial about buying up cheap as chips shares in a privatisation, and selling them a day, or a week, later for a 40% profit. Especially if you were the one who advised the government on the sale price.

I'm talking about exploitation. Allowing British industries, utilities and tax payers to be exploited by people with no interest in anything besides profit. And I'm talking about our own politicians being complicit in that exploitation.

We might talk about the French model being less conducive to profit, and more inflexible in workers rights and industry regulation. But it's french car companies buying up Nissan. It's EDF, the state owned French energy company, we pay our electric bills to.

The rest of your post highlights the issue with this country, if not most countries. No-one seems to be able to strike a balance. And not just a balance between socialism and capitalism, but between profit and social conscience, and between state and private ownership.
You're absolutely right that a mixture of political philosophies often comes closest to achieving that balance though.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by ToneLoc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:09 pm

:)

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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:02 pm
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:13 pm


Where do you get 65% from? No mandate was given on the kind of Brexit, and therein lies the problem.
Instead of setting up a commission to look into different kinds of Brexit, we just go ahead and activate article 50 with no plan, no data, no research, no recommendations and no mandate for the kind of Brexit the public wants. Madness.
It's this incompetence, and NOTHING else, that is causing all the issues. If the public had voted on things like joining the EEA or common market membership at least there'd be no grey areas.
I don't think there's much doubt that a majority of the voting public would prefer a soft Brexit.
All remainers would prefer that and a percentage of leavers too.

How can I dig May out? You can't be serious?
It was her government that triggered article 50.
She turned on the countdown timer with no plan in place, has flip flopped between hard and soft, has been held to ransom by the DUP, by the ERG, and by remainers.
And let's be clear, she CHOSE to put herself in that spot between the rock and the hard place.
So should I be digging out her utter, utter incompetence? Absolutely.
As far as Corbyn is concerned, he's probably as useless as May, but he's not a remainer.
A cleverer PM might've included him, played up to his ego, and got him onside.
But as it stands Mrs May is handing out peerages, knighthoods, and billions of pounds to win votes and still she gets stuffed.

Mogg is more popular than Corbyn? Sometimes I worry about you, mate. :lol:

Labour gave us the NHS, which is the most meaningful thing politicians have done for this country in most of our lifetimes.
Oh, and wasn't the minimum wage Labour too?
We're not all rich blokes like you, mate. ;)

70% of Tory Constituencies voted to leave....something just over 60% of Labour held voted leave.
I reckon somewhere in the region of 65% of MPs would have voted remain....Hence why I said
what I said......DO they represent their Constituencies or themselves...that's the question,
Because the 65 % Remainers in the house aren't pushing for a deal where we leave,they are
seeking a "Deal" where we remain,and are trying to fob us off with their acceptable deal crap.

Trouble is mate you come at this because of your hatred of the Tories,it's very evident....
Unfortunately you need an open mind on this sorta thing to see the big picture,hating something
blinkers you.
There was a vote...given to the public which was a promise in a winning Tory Manifesto...
Because of a swelling of pubic opinion on the EU situation....it's called democracy by the way..
Do you want to leave or remain in the EU....simple leave or remain....it's not possible
to put a 300 hundred page white paper out with all the ins and outs of it to be voted on.
We voted to leave...rightly or wrongly.....

It was put to the house that we need to trigger Article 50......"Parliament" Agreed.. not the Tories
who where mainly remainers but the whole house....SNP/Libs,Dup..independents.

FFS Nev Brexit is not a Tory Plan..
Not gonna repeat my views on Mays situation.....we just disagree, I get it no worries.

What does piss me off, not just you is this Tory "Rich Man" shit....FFs Mate belongs in the 1920s.
It's the working Classes that Vote the Tories in ...not your local Billionaire....go and ask your friends
and neighbours who they vote for.

I'm the son of a London Window Cleaner,who brought his kids this way to work in
Lutons Car industry for a better life....I started life as a floor layer....
My dad was a Labour man...my Grandad who was a big influence,on me..was a member of the
communist party...
Yet you think because I believe the best way for the working classes to have a better deal,is
for a Free Market Economy,Low direct taxation..etc.
I have to be wealthy......it's ridiculous..your better than that mate...
Ah, just goes to show how out of whack our system is that although only 52% voted leave that equates to 65% of constituencies.

I think a majority of MPs, especially conservatives, want A deal, just not May's deal.
I don't think my healthy cynicism, and resulting disdain, for this countries politicians equates to hatred of one party. I think you might have your Tory goggles on in that regard, mate.

It was a simple question wasn't it? Far too simple as it turns out.
So simple in fact that you can pretty much spin the result anyway you want.
Remainers can say that the Vote Leave campaign lied, made undeliverable promises, and broke the law. And they'd win a second vote now the cards are on the table.
Soft Brexiteers can say that given a choice between hard and soft they're in the majority since the remain vote would also prefer soft to hard.
And hard Brexiteers can continue to say Brexit means Brexit and shout down anyone who disagrees.
This is what happens when you leave so much open to interpretation.
Oh, and there was no 300 page white paper, since no-one thought looking into the ins, outs and consequences of Brexit was actually worth the effort.

I'm sorry mate, but THIS government put the European Union (Withdrawal) Act before parliament. All this actually shows is parliament ratifying the referendum result.
It doesn't mitigate the government's subsequent incompetence.

I don't subscribe to the 'rich man, poor man' political divide, mate. It was meant to be ridiculous, as I was, in fact, only joking.
Can't say I agree with your reasoning though. But life would be boring if we all agreed. ;)
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:26 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 pm
mkhammer wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:02 pm



70% of Tory Constituencies voted to leave....something just over 60% of Labour held voted leave.
I reckon somewhere in the region of 65% of MPs would have voted remain....Hence why I said
what I said......DO they represent their Constituencies or themselves...that's the question,
Because the 65 % Remainers in the house aren't pushing for a deal where we leave,they are
seeking a "Deal" where we remain,and are trying to fob us off with their acceptable deal crap.

Trouble is mate you come at this because of your hatred of the Tories,it's very evident....
Unfortunately you need an open mind on this sorta thing to see the big picture,hating something
blinkers you.
There was a vote...given to the public which was a promise in a winning Tory Manifesto...
Because of a swelling of pubic opinion on the EU situation....it's called democracy by the way..
Do you want to leave or remain in the EU....simple leave or remain....it's not possible
to put a 300 hundred page white paper out with all the ins and outs of it to be voted on.
We voted to leave...rightly or wrongly.....

It was put to the house that we need to trigger Article 50......"Parliament" Agreed.. not the Tories
who where mainly remainers but the whole house....SNP/Libs,Dup..independents.

FFS Nev Brexit is not a Tory Plan..
Not gonna repeat my views on Mays situation.....we just disagree, I get it no worries.

What does piss me off, not just you is this Tory "Rich Man" shit....FFs Mate belongs in the 1920s.
It's the working Classes that Vote the Tories in ...not your local Billionaire....go and ask your friends
and neighbours who they vote for.

I'm the son of a London Window Cleaner,who brought his kids this way to work in
Lutons Car industry for a better life....I started life as a floor layer....
My dad was a Labour man...my Grandad who was a big influence,on me..was a member of the
communist party...
Yet you think because I believe the best way for the working classes to have a better deal,is
for a Free Market Economy,Low direct taxation..etc.
I have to be wealthy......it's ridiculous..your better than that mate...
Ah, just goes to show how out of whack our system is that although only 52% voted leave that equates to 65% of constituencies.

I think a majority of MPs, especially conservatives, want A deal, just not May's deal.
I don't think my healthy cynicism, and resulting disdain, for this countries politicians equates to hatred of one party. I think you might have your Tory goggles on in that regard, mate.

It was a simple question wasn't it? Far too simple as it turns out.
So simple in fact that you can pretty much spin the result anyway you want.
Remainers can say that the Vote Leave campaign lied, made undeliverable promises, and broke the law. And they'd win a second vote now the cards are on the table.
Soft Brexiteers can say that given a choice between hard and soft they're in the majority since the remain vote would also prefer soft to hard.
And hard Brexiteers can continue to say Brexit means Brexit and shout down anyone who disagrees.
This is what happens when you leave so much open to interpretation.
Oh, and there was no 300 page white paper, since no-one thought looking into the ins, outs and consequences of Brexit was actually worth the effort.

I'm sorry mate, but THIS government put the European Union (Withdrawal) Act before parliament. All this actually shows is parliament ratifying the referendum result.
It doesn't mitigate the government's subsequent incompetence.

I don't subscribe to the 'rich man, poor man' political divide, mate. It was meant to be ridiculous, as I was, in fact, only joking.
Can't say I agree with your reasoning though. But life would be boring if we all agreed. ;)

Good post mate..totally get where your at on this...I disagree.....but last thing I want is
every bastard agreeing....reaching compromises ..yes...

This for me is an across party thing....which is why I Bang on about the 65% thing...
And like everyone does...choose a set of figures to back my reasoning....but here I think I'm
right.....Parliament are not reflecting Public opinion......
Me and you can Argue till cows come (I enjoy a good political disagreement.. :D )that's fine
no one gets hurt...but MPs end of the day are there to represent their Area of the Country/
Constituencies needs and want's ...that ain't happening.....take out London and Scotland,
the political area/ map of the UK Brexit vote is nearly all leave....that has to be represented.

As I see it we should in theory have a split Parliament on this....that would reflect public attitudes,
Because and I firmly believe this......The Remainers in Parliament,all sides of the house,
(Labour/SNP have separate agendas) are basically trying to over rule a Public Vote,by now putting
forward a deal that means we don't actually leave,in fact many are saying we would be a very poor
situation....still being controlled by these EU bods...with limited input.

I can't have MPs Dictating over public opinion,like I said 65% or so have their own agendas...

Again like I said the Tories didn't want this....I think we both agree ,from what you said,it had to
be done...Legally...there was no way out.

Bitterly disappointed so many Tory MPs were Remainers....And admit disappointed in other areas
as well....but that's another argument... :lol:

It is all about opinions couldn't agree more,but just on this representation thing..think I'm Right..

The White paper thing was just an exaggerated example as to how much info you can put
on a polling paper.....it does have to basically be a Yes or NO thing...


Oh.. the Moggster....stand but what I said,winning lots of people over.....
Saw him tame a LSE Mob (Leftie Students) QandA session...left with applause...who'd a thought.. :lol:
He's on Question time next thursday night..
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Neville Bartos
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:12 pm



Whether you agree with Anna Soubry's stance on Brexit or not, she is bang on the money that our two main parties are broken and lacking leadership.
One of the few politicians I have any respect for.
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Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

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