The Mogg is circling...

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terrya1965
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by terrya1965 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:09 am

Question.

Why do you think the majority voted to leave the EU?

Obviously,I cannot read minds,but I would say,the majority of them are fed up with the foreign invasion that has flooded this country.

Would you all agree?

The MP's and the big shareholders of companies want that to continue.They want so many people fighting over one job,so they can pay that person less money..More desperate people,the better it is for Shareholders.

I bet there will be some kind of Brexit,but there will been some sort of agreement put in place for free movement.

Exactly the reason why so many voted for it in the first bloody place.
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mkhammer
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:22 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:03 am
mkhammer wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:43 am


No I totally get that mate...nobody in there right mind WANTS a No deal situation,but unfortunately
we really are in a no deal is better area...and that must be there in the background.
So some are saying at least Mays deal has us part/most of the way there..it's just that F.in backstop.
It's so so tricky mate...I honestly not to sure now what i would be doing now if a Tory MP Leaver.
You wanna stand by yer guns...but we do have to compromise.
There was some really distraught Tories there last night...the whole thing is fucked up..
When that happens return to default and start again..but we cant do that....

We see it differently ..my admiration of May grows every day,you have have something to do
and you feel it's right...Never Ever give up till the very end.....I try and see the big picture,
not always successful granted.. :lol: but I just cant see what see is doing wrong,as she keeps
on saying ,shes trying to put a brexit in place that the public voted for, not what the bulk of
Parliament want....I believe shes trying...trying to do that.

Again I say the Public voted to leave...leave the Customs Union and all that goes with remaining
in that...Freedom of movement etc...thats what shes trying to get thru...that is what Labour,
and others are trying to prevent...I know which side I'm on....the Peoples...not Parliaments..

And I'm sorry mate but Labour have well and truly fucked me off over this...and I've never ever
been a Labour/Socialist disliker...
Fair play, mate, your reasoning is a mystery to me.
There's no good area for a no deal, unless your investment company has something to gain, or you want to import GM crops or chlorinated chicken.
In no way, shape, or form does it benefit your average working person.

And you talk about compromise, but May has presented parliament with the same deal twice, and will undoubtedly do so for a third time. So what's to admire about a lack of compromise there?
Do you think her deal is what the British public would choose? You might call two of the heaviest government defeats in history stubborn self belief, I'd call it pig headed bloody mindedness.

What I don't understand is you seem to not mind May's deal, which ties the UK to the EU indefinitely , and a no deal Brexit.
The most hard-line Brexiteers have twice foiled May's deal. It's not a case of 'oh, it's remainers voting against it'.
It's a horrible deal, it delivers none of the benefits of a soft Brexit, but somehow still ties us down to EU rules and regulations indefinitely.

No-one voted to leave the customs union or the EEA. The vote was to leave the EU. This is a falsehood that is trotted out time and again.
This was the Leave argument...


The stuff they want now was called Project Fear, it's right there for everyone to see.
Farage says it himself Norway get all the benefits of free trade, minus all the stuff the British people hate. His words.

Whether you choose to see it or not these people have moved the goalposts AFTER the vote, and despite the evidence right there, are pretending otherwise.

You're on your own side, mate. We all are.
And if it's not bias blaming Labour whilst admiring May... Like I said at the start, the reasoning behind that is a complete mystery.
Not quite sure what the mystery your on about is Nev TBH..
Said before Nobody but Nobody WANTS a No deal Scenario......but if your buying a car that's worth
£5000 and the the guy says he wont take less than 6,Sorry mate that's no deal,even if you desperately
want the car....therefore the no deal is the logical way.....I'll give you 5300...that's it,I'm walking...

Don't expect you to remember everything I've said,but have said as much as I admire May,would
have been voting up until recently, have been voting against her,as,as much as this deal
is workable...would be trying to squeeze more,namely the backstop....without that,she would
have quite possibly got it thru....end of the day we don't need Labour/SNP,she can get a deal
thru without them......it's not like you can talk to them.....Brexit IS NOT their priority,an election
is,if you cant see that mate...well.....The Tory ERG would go with it,not perfect,but workable,
no backstop that is...DUP would be on board...we have enough votes,another 52/48 thing... :lol:

The People you talk about(Mogg e.g) and the reason you don't like the Tories,end of the day,financially
don't give a shit which way it goes....People in that world shift money where it makes money,
buy low sell high,basically.....they'd much rather keep their money in funds that benefit the UK,
but they will move it away if need be...I would ,you would ,in same position.
That's another reason why we are worse off with Labours High tax thing.....wealthy don't give a
fuck,couple phone calls they move all their money into overseas accounts/funds,the Labour
Government collect less in tax from them and the working class Bod has to cover it...it's not
complicated,gone of topic ..sorry.

I try and refer to "Parliament" when the voting thing crops up...and have stated Parliament are
stopping Mays deal,Tory ERGers/DUP it's the worry of the Back stop,they have reason,a justified
one that I share.......Labour/Snp are against it because it means we leave the Customs Union
and all that entails......which is the main thing 65% ...again... :lol: of constituencies voted leave,
Sorry but I see it as very straight forward...that side of it is not as complicated as some will have us
think.

Peoples main fear/worry was excess immigration...uncontrolled immigration.....there's other
stuff ..course there is, but this is somehow the crux of it....everything else is tagged to this..
We Cant remain in a Customs Union,without allowing freedom of movement...that's clearcut
Stated categorically by the EU and accepted by us.....we have to leave a CU,or we might as
well remain......as I see it there should be away around it but the EU wont have it,thats
their sticking point much like ours is the Backstop..

I don't think any goalpost have been moved mate....We Have Remainer May trying to deliver
a deal as close to what the Public want as possible...and 60% of Parliament trying to reverse
the publics wishes....again it's pretty Straight Forward as I see it...

The Single Market and Customs Union,could/can be seen as different things,but I'll shut up
now prob bored you enough... :lol:
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mkhammer
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:55 am

terrya1965 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:09 am
Question.

Why do you think the majority voted to leave the EU?

Obviously,I cannot read minds,but I would say,the majority of them are fed up with the foreign invasion that has flooded this country.

Would you all agree?

The MP's and the big shareholders of companies want that to continue.They want so many people fighting over one job,so they can pay that person less money..More desperate people,the better it is for Shareholders.

I bet there will be some kind of Brexit,but there will been some sort of agreement put in place for free movement.

Exactly the reason why so many voted for it in the first bloody place.
Yes mate i also think that was on most peoples minds,when voting,not wholly,other stuff,being
able to set our own laws was one high up,free trade another,but Control of Borders was prob
at the top.
With the work thing,that's a tricky one,and can't find an answer,but the problem is,when
you can earn more from the Benefits system than working...it makes things difficult,
if you have a Family to look after,and someone in a job centre offers you a £300 a week job,
and your getting £400 or equivalent on Benefits....you ain't taking that job and will do whatever
to avoid taking it...anybody would..I certainly would,it's a no brainer.
(Blair is hugely to blame for our "Benefits Culture) but thats another argument... :lol: )
But someone somewhere has to do that job.....that's where some Polish guy/girl comes along and
goes I'll do it.

There's some unscrupulous nasty Bosses out there,no getting away from it,but don't think
it's totally any governments fault,but agree it needs sorting and something they must take
a firmer hand on,try and get wages to overtake what we can get in benefits,
all but impossible..
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BlackDiamond
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:59 am

The conservatives want rid of the PM but strategically not yet,which is why she has been marginalised for the past two years. She is useful as a figurehead of failure.

In politics it's useful to have a patsy and her very narrow election victory identified a perfect scapegoat. The fact that the PM's personal vanity could be stubbornly relied on, is the camouflage, that might allow the medicine to go down when requesting an extension.
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Newmarket
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Newmarket » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:12 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:55 am
terrya1965 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:09 am
Question.

Why do you think the majority voted to leave the EU?

Obviously,I cannot read minds,but I would say,the majority of them are fed up with the foreign invasion that has flooded this country.

Would you all agree?

The MP's and the big shareholders of companies want that to continue.They want so many people fighting over one job,so they can pay that person less money..More desperate people,the better it is for Shareholders.

I bet there will be some kind of Brexit,but there will been some sort of agreement put in place for free movement.

Exactly the reason why so many voted for it in the first bloody place.
Yes mate i also think that was on most peoples minds,when voting,not wholly,other stuff,being
able to set our own laws was one high up,free trade another,but Control of Borders was prob
at the top.
With the work thing,that's a tricky one,and can't find an answer,but the problem is,when
you can earn more from the Benefits system than working...it makes things difficult,
if you have a Family to look after,and someone in a job centre offers you a £300 a week job,
and your getting £400 or equivalent on Benefits....you ain't taking that job and will do whatever
to avoid taking it...anybody would..I certainly would,it's a no brainer.
(Blair is hugely to blame for our "Benefits Culture) but thats another argument... :lol: )
But someone somewhere has to do that job.....that's where some Polish guy/girl comes along and
goes I'll do it.

There's some unscrupulous nasty Bosses out there,no getting away from it,but don't think
it's totally any governments fault,but agree it needs sorting and something they must take
a firmer hand on,try and get wages to overtake what we can get in benefits,
all but impossible..
If you think people are better off on benefits than they are working then you must be on fucking drugs mate :lol:
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mkhammer
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:02 am

Newmarket wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:12 pm
mkhammer wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:55 am


Yes mate i also think that was on most peoples minds,when voting,not wholly,other stuff,being
able to set our own laws was one high up,free trade another,but Control of Borders was prob
at the top.
With the work thing,that's a tricky one,and can't find an answer,but the problem is,when
you can earn more from the Benefits system than working...it makes things difficult,
if you have a Family to look after,and someone in a job centre offers you a £300 a week job,
and your getting £400 or equivalent on Benefits....you ain't taking that job and will do whatever
to avoid taking it...anybody would..I certainly would,it's a no brainer.
(Blair is hugely to blame for our "Benefits Culture) but thats another argument... :lol: )
But someone somewhere has to do that job.....that's where some Polish guy/girl comes along and
goes I'll do it.

There's some unscrupulous nasty Bosses out there,no getting away from it,but don't think
it's totally any governments fault,but agree it needs sorting and something they must take
a firmer hand on,try and get wages to overtake what we can get in benefits,
all but impossible..
If you think people are better off on benefits than they are working then you must be on fucking drugs mate :lol:
I'm talking about in General what I see and hear about across the country,not any individual cases,
peoples circumstances are different....some could be better off some could be worse....
But "Benefits" is now a life style choice...instead of being a fallback system to help people
out that need it.
I'm not blaming people..you go where can get most money.

Why do economic migrants travel half way cross the world,risk their lives in a shitty rubber dinghy,
to get here...it's not because of the weather mate...
Like I said it's a tough one...trying to find a fair balance,but it's better if we can get people
back into work,and more importantly..want to,not forcing them.

Under Blair a couple could have a joint income of £80,000 and still get Child Benefits,he
screwed up the whole system...now its bloody near impossible to get it back to a workable
fairer system..
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Neville Bartos
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:23 pm

Good to see Nigel Farage's Brexit march attracting literally hundreds* of people. The nation has spoken :lol:






*300ish at £50 a head. No wonder Nige has decided to give it a swerve himself, it pays worse than being an MEP.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Marco Boogers Boots » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:35 am

This whole thing is a fucking joke. As far as I can tell, we are now firmly back to where we were the day after May's WA was hammered for the first time. Literally fuck all has changed. And it is unlikely to.

We are in the middle of a very strange quandary; I think it is almost impossible to get a consensus on the terms of a withdrawal for several reasons, but they all link to party beliefs (or the lack of them). This was doomed to fail from the very beginning when it was allowed to be used as a political football for a game of party politics, instead of putting party allegiances to one side and forming a cross-parliament "Brexit Committee', albeit led by the Tories as the government of the day. This political point scoring has gradually gotten worse over the past two and a half years, to the point where the individual parties can't come to agreement among themselves - meaning that party leaderships can't even whip their MPs to stand together on a vote in the HoC.

For our political system to work we need a party firmly in power, able to get legislation through with a good majority, but not too big as that means we have a good opposition party holding the government to account. This isn't happening over Brexit for many reasons. Firstly the opposition leader is Jeremy Corbyn, I'll say no more on that - it's a separate thread entirely.

The biggest problem in government is that we don't have simple government v opposition (Tory v Labour), but there are many disparate groups, with some being cross-party. You've got straight forward leave and remain on all sides of the house, the ERG, the Independent Group and then the DUP, who hold a very strong hand over the backstop and, therefore, May's WA.

What this all means is an electorate that has had enough. MPs have gone against their constituent's wishes and many will likely lose their seats in a General Election. Unfortunately, this is not the silver bullet many are hoping for IMO. The contempt aimed at some MPs by the electorate would cause some seats to change hands between the main parties, but the biggest worry I have is that this has created a political vacuum for the likes of the Brexit Party and independents like Tommy Robinson (who is talking about standing). If these win seats, which is likely, it makes it even less likely that we will have a majority government, rather we will get a melting-pot coalition - this would likely be pro-Brexit and we would probably leave the EU in some form, but once we get back to "normal" day-to-day politics I fear they will be unable to agree on policy and will therefore be unfit to govern. Cue another election, another form of coalition and we'll keep going....

I hope I'm wrong, but I genuinely worry about an election ruined by "protest vote". It got us nowhere when UKIP made a run at parliament.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Marco Boogers Boots wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:35 am
This whole thing is a fucking joke. As far as I can tell, we are now firmly back to where we were the day after May's WA was hammered for the first time. Literally fuck all has changed. And it is unlikely to.

We are in the middle of a very strange quandary; I think it is almost impossible to get a consensus on the terms of a withdrawal for several reasons, but they all link to party beliefs (or the lack of them). This was doomed to fail from the very beginning when it was allowed to be used as a political football for a game of party politics, instead of putting party allegiances to one side and forming a cross-parliament "Brexit Committee', albeit led by the Tories as the government of the day. This political point scoring has gradually gotten worse over the past two and a half years, to the point where the individual parties can't come to agreement among themselves - meaning that party leaderships can't even whip their MPs to stand together on a vote in the HoC.

For our political system to work we need a party firmly in power, able to get legislation through with a good majority, but not too big as that means we have a good opposition party holding the government to account. This isn't happening over Brexit for many reasons. Firstly the opposition leader is Jeremy Corbyn, I'll say no more on that - it's a separate thread entirely.

The biggest problem in government is that we don't have simple government v opposition (Tory v Labour), but there are many disparate groups, with some being cross-party. You've got straight forward leave and remain on all sides of the house, the ERG, the Independent Group and then the DUP, who hold a very strong hand over the backstop and, therefore, May's WA.

What this all means is an electorate that has had enough. MPs have gone against their constituent's wishes and many will likely lose their seats in a General Election. Unfortunately, this is not the silver bullet many are hoping for IMO. The contempt aimed at some MPs by the electorate would cause some seats to change hands between the main parties, but the biggest worry I have is that this has created a political vacuum for the likes of the Brexit Party and independents like Tommy Robinson (who is talking about standing). If these win seats, which is likely, it makes it even less likely that we will have a majority government, rather we will get a melting-pot coalition - this would likely be pro-Brexit and we would probably leave the EU in some form, but once we get back to "normal" day-to-day politics I fear they will be unable to agree on policy and will therefore be unfit to govern. Cue another election, another form of coalition and we'll keep going....

I hope I'm wrong, but I genuinely worry about an election ruined by "protest vote". It got us nowhere when UKIP made a run at parliament.

It has become a political,bartering thing mate no doubt.....and I've dug the Labour Party and SNP
out over it.......But still think if the Tories had had a big majority..like you say to push things
thru....we still would have have had a problem..as the Tories are Split and any soft deal would
have been prevented by the ERG lot....and there no chance of a Proper "Leave Means Leave" deal
as most of the Tories are Remainers...
In that respect the Tories have been just as bad as anyone else in not respecting a referendum result.

I Agree you need a Strong Party,not reliant on others,to get things thru....However...things of
National Importance like this should always be across the house..

May is getting quite close or closer to getting this through now....just a bit of movement,clarification
on the backstop,could well swing it...she doesn't need anyones support,apart from her own party
and the DUP....she sees the Labour Party as irrelevant in it now.

We do have a Prob that could happen...If.. a BIG if,if she convinces all the Tory Party to get behind
it,and maybe 30/40 Labour....Something might be pushed thru without the support of the DUP,
that would be disastrous...because would almost certainly involve some form of backstop,
would have to be a defined date to swing the ERG over...but would that satisfy the DUP,I'd like
to think so,but would hate to push anything thru without their backing,huge consequences.

This has Def thrown up some doubts on Parliament for me,always been a big supporter of it...
But what has not happened here is that...the MPs who are going against their constituents wishes
and that's well over half....need to stand up and say why....not say I'm doing it for my constituents/area
when most voted leave....thats just pure crap...tell people they got it wrong and why,or better still
actually do and support what they wanted and voted for in the first place...
Could never understand why so many(MPs) are Remainers.....especially amongst the Tories,you would
have thought it would have been pretty much split.

Think the Labour Party are very much at risk here.....they know it as well,hence why The Labour
advisers have had a word in jeremys ear and told him not to push to much for a 2nd referendum,
keep up his usual non committal thing...which he has on everything...as it was actualy Labour
voters pushed a leave vote thru...

Wouldn't mind seeing a Proper Centre Ground Democratic party come out of all this,but not
the bunch of self serving independent bods that are around at the minute..
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by palerider » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:09 pm

I see that pompous arse John Bercow, the Mike Dean of politics, has waded in.

No more 'meaningful votes' in this parliamentary term which runs until July, unless Mother Theresa comes up with something a lot different.

So either she does, highly unlikely, or this drags on now for at least four months although crashing out with no deal is still not out of the question.
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