The Mogg is circling...

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Neville Bartos
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Fri May 17, 2019 10:17 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:09 am
mkhammer wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 am


I don't actually disagree...was a Lib when a kid in 80s,used to bang on about the unfairness
of the Voting System..But couldn't really work out how we could make a different system work.

So we have a vote...just on numbers of electorate,Tories say get 40% Lab 35% Libs 10% Ukip 10%
Others 5%...Just being approximate here.....Tories get 280 seats..in the Parliament...Lab get 220..
Libs 60 or so each...others 30..
We still need elected "People"..we'll stick with calling them MPs..to represent areas of the country,
So how do we decide who goes where...surely its best to have,an MP representing an area,rather than
being allocated one..
I'm not saying a new system isn't doable..Germany have a different system seems to work..

Prob is the Libs were all, still are for PR...BUT if they somehow got to be elected would drop it like a
hot potato....cos the present system would have worked for them.....Winners don't wanna change things.

Lost my thread of thought...just looked at TV to see Rachel Riley on looking absolutely Stunning,
Fuck Politics when there's a beautiful woman around... :lol:

Whiskey.....The BBC might as well just come Clean it's way way to obvious,Sky aren't far behind,
Papers,don't really read...get Times 2/3 times a week,and I see plenty of May Digs in it....
Piss taking Cartoons etc....
The idea of an MP representing his or her local constituency is one often brought out when PR is discussed. My M P is local. His predecessor wasn't. And I wouldn't mind betting that the majority of MP's, particularly the ones on both sides who are seen as "key" to their party and are shunted into unlosable seats, have no particular affinity to the area they are elected to represent.

PR works in Germany, the best managed country financially since WWII, and pretty much everywhere else in the free world. If electoral seats, a totally unsatisfactory way of determining the number of MP's imo because of the ease with which areas can be manipulated, both sides have been guilty of this in the past. Frankly I would rather see a truly democratic system, one in which every vote actually counts, rather than the present system which has, certainly in my lifetime, ALWAYS resulted in us getting a government, often with an unchallengeable majority in the House, that the majority of voters didn't want.

As for the Times taking the piss out of Theresa May and her "government", I use the term in the loosest possible sense. I can't really see why they bother. She and her colleagues, for whom I am ashamed to admit I voted, seem perfectly capable of making complete cunts of themselves without any help from the media. If we had a credible opposition, another flaw of the present electoral system imo, they would have been history months ago.

I'll bow to your judgment in respect of the Sky stance on Brexit but if they are in the remain camp it's hardly surprising. Business by and large want to stay in for fairly obvious reasons and Sky rely on advertising from, guess what, business. And of course much of the financial backing for the Conservative party comes from business groups. The only surprise for me is that it's taken almost 3 years for matters to come to the apparent impasse we now have.

And it's doing no good at all to my, or anyone else's, investment portfolio. The cunts. ;)
goodpost:)
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mkhammer
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Fri May 17, 2019 10:22 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 pm
mkhammer wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 am


I don't actually disagree...was a Lib when a kid in 80s,used to bang on about the unfairness
of the Voting System..But couldn't really work out how we could make a different system work.

So we have a vote...just on numbers of electorate,Tories say get 40% Lab 35% Libs 10% Ukip 10%
Others 5%...Just being approximate here.....Tories get 280 seats..in the Parliament...Lab get 220..
Libs 60 or so each...others 30..
We still need elected "People"..we'll stick with calling them MPs..to represent areas of the country,
So how do we decide who goes where...surely its best to have,an MP representing an area,rather than
being allocated one..
I'm not saying a new system isn't doable..Germany have a different system seems to work..

Prob is the Libs were all, still are for PR...BUT if they somehow got to be elected would drop it like a
hot potato....cos the present system would have worked for them.....Winners don't wanna change things.

Lost my thread of thought...just looked at TV to see Rachel Riley on looking absolutely Stunning,
Fuck Politics when there's a beautiful woman around... :lol:

Whiskey.....The BBC might as well just come Clean it's way way to obvious,Sky aren't far behind,
Papers,don't really read...get Times 2/3 times a week,and I see plenty of May Digs in it....
Piss taking Cartoons etc....
I think the second house had been ripe for conversion from peers to PR for some time.
A second house with some teeth and legitamcy might just be what British politics needs.
Yeah that's Def a way in to make changes to the present system....I'm not against the Lords as
such...but would like it less about political sidings..more of a Social based thing..be good to
have people sitting that represent....Nurses,Teachers,Coppers,Social Care,the Homeless,all
walks of life,but must have no political allegiance to any party....
We need to move Social stuff away from Politics,and Politicians using it for gain..


Think some of the old wealthy dodderers that we see in there,mean well,but they're detached,
they don't get it, the real problems and what to do,if they could engage more with "Normal" guys
and girls actually out there in the front line...they might have a better understanding.
Sounds a bit "Fantasyland"...but live in hope

What this recent shit has proved to me is some decisions have to be made away from the Political
Environment,the country is being put at risk,because one or two sides don't agree about
the others policies,outside of the issue at hand...therefore that issue needs to go elsewhere,
be that the Courts....or an Independent house,a reformed,renamed maybe Lords...
They make the decision...if Parliament cant.
This is Far Far from being Done (Brexit)....it will go to the courts,if gets overturned..
Mogg and his mates will make sure of that.

We cannot have a Parliament...overturning a Public vote.....NEVER...

Does get me ...the Libs are freely saying now...vote for us to remain in the EU..after the public
have voted to leave......no wonder they're slowly dropping the word Democrats from their party
name..looks like they have no understanding of the word.

Bollocks to Brexit they say....actually means Bollocks to the people of the UK,that thought we'd
could be stronger and better outside of the EU....well bollocks to them...
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Fri May 17, 2019 10:56 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:09 am
mkhammer wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 am


I don't actually disagree...was a Lib when a kid in 80s,used to bang on about the unfairness
of the Voting System..But couldn't really work out how we could make a different system work.

So we have a vote...just on numbers of electorate,Tories say get 40% Lab 35% Libs 10% Ukip 10%
Others 5%...Just being approximate here.....Tories get 280 seats..in the Parliament...Lab get 220..
Libs 60 or so each...others 30..
We still need elected "People"..we'll stick with calling them MPs..to represent areas of the country,
So how do we decide who goes where...surely its best to have,an MP representing an area,rather than
being allocated one..
I'm not saying a new system isn't doable..Germany have a different system seems to work..

Prob is the Libs were all, still are for PR...BUT if they somehow got to be elected would drop it like a
hot potato....cos the present system would have worked for them.....Winners don't wanna change things.

Lost my thread of thought...just looked at TV to see Rachel Riley on looking absolutely Stunning,
Fuck Politics when there's a beautiful woman around... :lol:

Whiskey.....The BBC might as well just come Clean it's way way to obvious,Sky aren't far behind,
Papers,don't really read...get Times 2/3 times a week,and I see plenty of May Digs in it....
Piss taking Cartoons etc....
The idea of an MP representing his or her local constituency is one often brought out when PR is discussed. My M P is local. His predecessor wasn't. And I wouldn't mind betting that the majority of MP's, particularly the ones on both sides who are seen as "key" to their party and are shunted into unlosable seats, have no particular affinity to the area they are elected to represent.

PR works in Germany, the best managed country financially since WWII, and pretty much everywhere else in the free world. If electoral seats, a totally unsatisfactory way of determining the number of MP's imo because of the ease with which areas can be manipulated, both sides have been guilty of this in the past. Frankly I would rather see a truly democratic system, one in which every vote actually counts, rather than the present system which has, certainly in my lifetime, ALWAYS resulted in us getting a government, often with an unchallengeable majority in the House, that the majority of voters didn't want.

As for the Times taking the piss out of Theresa May and her "government", I use the term in the loosest possible sense. I can't really see why they bother. She and her colleagues, for whom I am ashamed to admit I voted, seem perfectly capable of making complete cunts of themselves without any help from the media. If we had a credible opposition, another flaw of the present electoral system imo, they would have been history months ago.

I'll bow to your judgment in respect of the Sky stance on Brexit but if they are in the remain camp it's hardly surprising. Business by and large want to stay in for fairly obvious reasons and Sky rely on advertising from, guess what, business. And of course much of the financial backing for the Conservative party comes from business groups. The only surprise for me is that it's taken almost 3 years for matters to come to the apparent impasse we now have.

And it's doing no good at all to my, or anyone else's, investment portfolio. The cunts. ;)
TBH Whiskey....I'm a Tory,since Thatch converted me as a youngster...who like people still do
had a borderline hatred of her first of all...but I watched, listened,understood and learnt.
And what I'm seeing now is the reason I still support them and prob now always will.
I've seen them rip themselves apart in disagreement...(nothing wrong in disagreeing) it's
fundamental in decision making,but slowly slowly they've pulled together,there's votes in
parliament were they are willingly voting together...indeed now they will mostly all support
Mays deal next time round,they've compromised..been fuckin hard but they've done it....Because...
that's what the public voted for...like it or not...hate it or not...can disagree all you want..
thats what happened.
If there was a way of getting DUP to back it (Which they wont)..would have been poss to get it thru.

Other Parties, all of em....have from day one...used it for political gain...voting against and
freely admitting they will vote against ANY deal...good or bad.....Brexit was secondary,
voting against the Tories was the Objective.....Brexit has failed and struggled,not because of
May..not Because of the Tories......Parliament has caused it to fail...at the moment.
And the Labour Party and others feel they have a right to overturn a public mandate...and
Remain.

Have always seen opposing arguments politically.....now just a hardline tory...fuck the
others.....they've put my my country at risk for political gain...can't have that..

Leaving the EU was Public decision.....not a Tory one,the Tories by in large were remainers,
that shocked me TBH,but I get it...
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 am

mkhammer wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:22 am




We cannot have a Parliament...overturning a Public vote.....NEVER...
The cynic in me says that parliament can do whatever it wants. Why ? Because ever since I've been able to vote we've always bended up with a government, and policies it wishes to implement, that more people voted against than gave a mandate to.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Sat May 18, 2019 10:32 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 am
mkhammer wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:22 am




We cannot have a Parliament...overturning a Public vote.....NEVER...
The cynic in me says that parliament can do whatever it wants. Why ? Because ever since I've been able to vote we've always bended up with a government, and policies it wishes to implement, that more people voted against than gave a mandate to.
I do get what your saying...but i think it's that we live in such a free society....freest around IMO
that there's so many levels of peoples politics.We have free speaking communists to the not so allowed
to speak far righters...and everything in between...so makes it almost impossible,would say it is
impossible for any party to get over 50% of the vote.
We even allow people to preach on our streets,telling people to kill our Police and armed
forces...how fuckin free does it get.Maybe it's to free if anything...

So we have to go with a Majority, however small...problems arise when the opposition opposes
Bills En masse for Political gain...and are prepared to overrule a "Specific" mandate...well,
They should Never Ever be allowed anywhere near having the power to control parliament,
would be borderline dictatorship,if they ignore us...the public,but Corbyn supports one
party "Peoples"... :lol: Politics..
And as for this crap we want to leave with a deal from Labour,Labour want a remain deal,
I cant believe that there's intelligent people that cant see that.


And to be honest...Generally I liked the way the system worked,it does/did work,we've done something
right...when I take a look round at others...Maybe after recent stuff and how far some of our MPs
will go to get what they want...not what we want,voted for...maybe it needs looking at.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Sat May 18, 2019 3:22 pm

mkhammer wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:32 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 am


The cynic in me says that parliament can do whatever it wants. Why ? Because ever since I've been able to vote we've always bended up with a government, and policies it wishes to implement, that more people voted against than gave a mandate to.
I do get what your saying...but i think it's that we live in such a free society....freest around IMO
that there's so many levels of peoples politics.We have free speaking communists to the not so allowed
to speak far righters...and everything in between...so makes it almost impossible,would say it is
impossible for any party to get over 50% of the vote.
We even allow people to preach on our streets,telling people to kill our Police and armed
forces...how fuckin free does it get.Maybe it's to free if anything...

So we have to go with a Majority, however small...problems arise when the opposition opposes
Bills En masse for Political gain...and are prepared to overrule a "Specific" mandate...well,
They should Never Ever be allowed anywhere near having the power to control parliament,
would be borderline dictatorship,if they ignore us...the public,but Corbyn supports one
party "Peoples"... :lol: Politics..
And as for this crap we want to leave with a deal from Labour,Labour want a remain deal,
I cant believe that there's intelligent people that cant see that.


And to be honest...Generally I liked the way the system worked,it does/did work,we've done something
right...when I take a look round at others...Maybe after recent stuff and how far some of our MPs
will go to get what they want...not what we want,voted for...maybe it needs looking at.
Do we have to go with an outright majority ? PR works, far more often than not without one, very well in the majority of those countries which use it. Agreements are sought and agreed upon and liaisons are formed. Consensus can work. We're even seeing it underpinning our own government at the moment. You clearly recognise many different viewpoints exist, so what would be the problem if minority parties such as The Greens, UKIP and even the ENP had a voice in Parliament ? I believe it would make politics more honest and encourage, for example the far left and far right extremists to stand on their own two feet instead of seeking refuge in the Labour or Tory camps and often benefiting simply by wearing the appropriate coloured rosette in a "safe" seat. Let's face it a filing cabinet, wearing red, will always be elected in Barking and stick a blue rosette on it's twin in NorthEast Hampshire and, hey presto. My point being the capabilities, integrity and even genuine political beliefs of most candidates is totally unknown to the electorate.

As for the Labour party. I believe Labour's official position , as stated in their last election manifesto, is to honour the referendum result. But of course being politicians they are always looking for an angle to exploit and are using the present impasse to try and force a general election. Cynical opportunism ? Of course. But worse than Boris Johnson standing in the Cameron government as a pro EU candidate only to perform a complete volte-face when the referendum was called?
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Sun May 19, 2019 1:12 pm

Whiskyman wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:22 pm
mkhammer wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:32 am


I do get what your saying...but i think it's that we live in such a free society....freest around IMO
that there's so many levels of peoples politics.We have free speaking communists to the not so allowed
to speak far righters...and everything in between...so makes it almost impossible,would say it is
impossible for any party to get over 50% of the vote.
We even allow people to preach on our streets,telling people to kill our Police and armed
forces...how fuckin free does it get.Maybe it's to free if anything...

So we have to go with a Majority, however small...problems arise when the opposition opposes
Bills En masse for Political gain...and are prepared to overrule a "Specific" mandate...well,
They should Never Ever be allowed anywhere near having the power to control parliament,
would be borderline dictatorship,if they ignore us...the public,but Corbyn supports one
party "Peoples"... :lol: Politics..
And as for this crap we want to leave with a deal from Labour,Labour want a remain deal,
I cant believe that there's intelligent people that cant see that.


And to be honest...Generally I liked the way the system worked,it does/did work,we've done something
right...when I take a look round at others...Maybe after recent stuff and how far some of our MPs
will go to get what they want...not what we want,voted for...maybe it needs looking at.
Do we have to go with an outright majority ? PR works, far more often than not without one, very well in the majority of those countries which use it. Agreements are sought and agreed upon and liaisons are formed. Consensus can work. We're even seeing it underpinning our own government at the moment. You clearly recognise many different viewpoints exist, so what would be the problem if minority parties such as The Greens, UKIP and even the ENP had a voice in Parliament ? I believe it would make politics more honest and encourage, for example the far left and far right extremists to stand on their own two feet instead of seeking refuge in the Labour or Tory camps and often benefiting simply by wearing the appropriate coloured rosette in a "safe" seat. Let's face it a filing cabinet, wearing red, will always be elected in Barking and stick a blue rosette on it's twin in NorthEast Hampshire and, hey presto. My point being the capabilities, integrity and even genuine political beliefs of most candidates is totally unknown to the electorate.

As for the Labour party. I believe Labour's official position , as stated in their last election manifesto, is to honour the referendum result. But of course being politicians they are always looking for an angle to exploit and are using the present impasse to try and force a general election. Cynical opportunism ? Of course. But worse than Boris Johnson standing in the Cameron government as a pro EU candidate only to perform a complete volte-face when the referendum was called?
Yeah annoys me SNP get 3 questions + sometimes in Parliament (PMs questions)with 3% of
total vote..Libs get the odd 1 with 7% of vote...theres been even worse stats in the past..
Namely Ukip and Libs in previous years....your right peoples voices aren't heard in Parliament
at times.

I think maybe a compromise, and reform the house of lords...make it less political,like I said somewhere
previously..make it more open....we should have proper public recognition from across the board
Non politically making the final call on certain issues....everything has to pass the Lords anyway,
make it less political with more powers,have the power to pass bills or not thru the courts...
which they do, but it's not used because of political bias...
...first thing Blair done was fill it with Labourites,was for a reason,they're still there voting
politically,same as commons...we need other judgements/decisions outside of being Labour or Tory.

It's hard getting this down in a few sentences...

Cos to me MPs wanting to Stop Brexit is bordering on an illegality,in fact almost certain.
You must fulfil a public vote/mandate.....Libs and SNP are freely wanting to overrule it,
Labour doing same but more cautiously...
Might as well say the losing party in an election can call for another one,cos they considered it
close...

Labour aren't "Honouring" a Referendum which ever way they spin it...Basically people voted
to leave the Customs Union.....To Have Free trade with other countries,and end free movement
of people across borders.....be able to set our own Laws/Regulations,arguably the 3 things
people prioritised when voting.
Labour want pretty much to remain in the present CU...with a few minor tweaks,to make it seem
like they're supporting the mandate.....Fucking crafty...but people aren't stupid as they are(Labour)
finding out.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Mon May 20, 2019 12:00 pm

The New Liberal...Heseltine was on news this morning...
Was Saying how most of the country wanted to remain....flashing up underneath him the
latest Euro Election Poles.....Brexit Party 36%....Libs 17%...Labour..12%..... :lol:

Idiot..............


I'm actually starting to come round to this 2nd referendum thing.....leave vote would prob go up... :lol:
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Thames » Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 pm

Brilliant thread this lads (lasses, bineries, gays, trans, what evers, who gives a fuckers)...followed it closely and you are all far more knowledgeable than me on politics. But, can anyone tell me why the PM has said this today...

"MPs will get a vote on whether to hold another referendum if they back the EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill, she said"

Another referendum? What?
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Gonzo » Tue May 21, 2019 9:44 pm

Thames wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 pm
Brilliant thread this lads (lasses, bineries, gays, trans, what evers, who gives a fuckers)...followed it closely and you are all far more knowledgeable than me on politics. But, can anyone tell me why the PM has said this today...

"MPs will get a vote on whether to hold another referendum if they back the EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill, she said"

Another referendum? What?

She's off her tit's mate and trying to do anything to get her deal passed.
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