The Mogg is circling...

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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by palerider » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:15 am

mkhammer wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:16 am
End of the day it's really really simple.....

We Want and will trade with Europe,in out it will continue...they need us as much as we need them..
We will not make it harder...they WILL NOT make it harder.....they hinder our trade with them,
they suffer it makes no sense...

What Leavers are saying is we want to trade world wide,and not be limited..
Every country.. Euro or not.......should have that right surely FFS...
And not have a bunch of people,we don't know and are in the mainpart unelected,basically
saying NO you cant trade with them.......Democracy ...My arse.

There's so many expanding markets now.....any Business,from your household,your company,
thru Big Corporations,investment funds....Governments...you name it...it's all about options,
being able to get best value,and not be limited to 20% of the market your interested in.
It's not rocket science it's simple fact.
All the Business world wants is security...to know whats gonna happen...that's the prob at moment.
A defined leave...(Which it is to me)...right changes to make lets crack on...
Stay.....stay as we are...again crack on...they just like knowing,but I can guarantee the
Majority of Business.....if we could have had a smooth passage out,would prefer,free trade
as opposed to limited trade.
But I do understand it's a huge leap of faith for some,and I get the,devil you know thing.

People are scared of change...we cant change that,but if you don't look to the future,and get
involved in whats happening worldwide,and join in,you'll eventually start to stagnate,not
overnight but over time.....now is the time to update and move on,from the limitations
we have by being stuck in this Eurozone thing.

We're not pulling up sticks and moving to the Caribbean..we're still European.

The other stuff...Again it's Simple I/we want the Government (Whoever that may) be,who we
as the UK, Elect..to have Control and the power to run the Country in a way that benefits
the UK in 2019 and moving forward,and not be overseen by an old fashioned bunch of Cronies,
who only have their best interests at heart...
Talking of 'their best interests at heart', the number of MP's on both sides of the house whose own constituents voted to leave yet are either voting against this deal, however bad it is, or are campaigning for a second referendum, is a disgrace.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by terrya1965 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:21 am

FlatCapDave wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:49 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 pm
Come on Dave, no-one's saying the country won't survive. But much like needlessly taking a 10% pay cut, it's ridiculous pretending it could be anything other than negative.

And can anyone give me an example of a country putting up extra barriers to trade and prospering as a result?
Why would we be putting up extra barriers to trade? Isn't it the EU who would have trade barriers in place for us, and not the other way around? Our government will have the power now to make trade as easy or difficult as they want for those who wish to do business with us, and if the current lot make things difficult we can simply vote in another bunch of suits at the next election, can't we?

Imagine that, eh? The current generation probably don't even know what it's like to have elected leaders taking charge of this kind of thing! The novelty!

Also, wouldn't this move allow us the opportunity to strike our own trade deals with the likes of China, the US, Japan, South Korea, Russia and so on? Top 10 highest exporting countries in the world every single one.

Not to mention the fact that once all of this goes through and is finalised the 8th largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power, and the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of nominal GDP is going to be hanging an "open for business" sign in the front fucking window.

If we cut through the political bollocks and all the posturing from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels it's clear that things will continue on as they pretty much have in the past.

Countries will trade goods and services, just as they always have. It happened before the EU, and it'll happen long after the majority finally see sense and realise it's not fit for fucking purpose.
All I'm saying is I will never trust the tories being out of the EU,because they will take advantage of the working class
Then it's up to the working class majority to vote the cunts out, isn't it? That's the beautiful thing about democracy. Everyone of legal voting age gets to have a say.

Which is more than can be said about the hierarchy of the EU, which never appears on any fucking ballot paper you or I will ever see.

Our MEP's are about as effective in the EU as those berks in the House of Lords are in the UK.
Tbf,I don`t think the British public trust labour has they're too much for the ethnics of this country.Half the party are racists..I am only saying on how the public think.If we had an opposition that were middle ground(tories are about greed),they would piss a general election
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by h69 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:26 am

FlatCapDave wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:49 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 pm
Come on Dave, no-one's saying the country won't survive. But much like needlessly taking a 10% pay cut, it's ridiculous pretending it could be anything other than negative.

And can anyone give me an example of a country putting up extra barriers to trade and prospering as a result?
Why would we be putting up extra barriers to trade? Isn't it the EU who would have trade barriers in place for us, and not the other way around? Our government will have the power now to make trade as easy or difficult as they want for those who wish to do business with us, and if the current lot make things difficult we can simply vote in another bunch of suits at the next election, can't we?

Imagine that, eh? The current generation probably don't even know what it's like to have elected leaders taking charge of this kind of thing! The novelty!

Also, wouldn't this move allow us the opportunity to strike our own trade deals with the likes of China, the US, Japan, South Korea, Russia and so on? Top 10 highest exporting countries in the world every single one.

Not to mention the fact that once all of this goes through and is finalised the 8th largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power, and the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of nominal GDP is going to be hanging an "open for business" sign in the front fucking window.

If we cut through the political bollocks and all the posturing from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels it's clear that things will continue on as they pretty much have in the past.

Countries will trade goods and services, just as they always have. It happened before the EU, and it'll happen long after the majority finally see sense and realise it's not fit for fucking purpose.
All I'm saying is I will never trust the tories being out of the EU,because they will take advantage of the working class
Then it's up to the working class majority to vote the cunts out, isn't it? That's the beautiful thing about democracy. Everyone of legal voting age gets to have a say.

Which is more than can be said about the hierarchy of the EU, which never appears on any fucking ballot paper you or I will ever see.

Our MEP's are about as effective in the EU as those berks in the House of Lords are in the UK.
Spot on !
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by FlatCapDave » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:50 am

terrya1965 wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:21 am
Tbf,I don`t think the British public trust labour has they're too much for the ethnics of this country.Half the party are racists..I am only saying on how the public think.If we had an opposition that were middle ground(tories are about greed),they would piss a general election
Well, there's more than just Labour or Conservative to choose from in a general election. It's up to the British public to make wiser choices, and if they don't then we deserve the Government we get quite frankly.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm

FlatCapDave wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:49 am
Neville Bartos wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 pm
Come on Dave, no-one's saying the country won't survive. But much like needlessly taking a 10% pay cut, it's ridiculous pretending it could be anything other than negative.

And can anyone give me an example of a country putting up extra barriers to trade and prospering as a result?
Why would we be putting up extra barriers to trade? Isn't it the EU who would have trade barriers in place for us, and not the other way around? Our government will have the power now to make trade as easy or difficult as they want for those who wish to do business with us, and if the current lot make things difficult we can simply vote in another bunch of suits at the next election, can't we?

Imagine that, eh? The current generation probably don't even know what it's like to have elected leaders taking charge of this kind of thing! The novelty!

Also, wouldn't this move allow us the opportunity to strike our own trade deals with the likes of China, the US, Japan, South Korea, Russia and so on? Top 10 highest exporting countries in the world every single one.

Not to mention the fact that once all of this goes through and is finalised the 8th largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power, and the 6th largest economy in the world in terms of nominal GDP is going to be hanging an "open for business" sign in the front fucking window.

If we cut through the political bollocks and all the posturing from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels it's clear that things will continue on as they pretty much have in the past.

Countries will trade goods and services, just as they always have. It happened before the EU, and it'll happen long after the majority finally see sense and realise it's not fit for fucking purpose.
All I'm saying is I will never trust the tories being out of the EU,because they will take advantage of the working class
Then it's up to the working class majority to vote the cunts out, isn't it? That's the beautiful thing about democracy. Everyone of legal voting age gets to have a say.

Which is more than can be said about the hierarchy of the EU, which never appears on any fucking ballot paper you or I will ever see.

Our MEP's are about as effective in the EU as those berks in the House of Lords are in the UK.
What? You do understand that EVERY trade deal we have is via the EU? With every country in the EU and EEA we currently have a free trade agreement, and because we're in the customs union there's hugely reduced resources and expenditure for all governments in that area.
So, as soon as we leave, every trade agreement becomes null and void.
That's increased barriers with the countries in the EEA who, let's not forget, are responsible for pretty much half of all imports and exports.
Everything is replaced by WTO agreements -- and this is assuming the WTO even offer us a deal -- with everyone else.
And FYI those WTO agreements aren't 'better'. If they were Switzerland and Norway wouldn't be in the EEA.

As for the entirely fatuous argument that 'they need us as much as we need them'? It's a fucking John Redwood quote. Seriously if the argument anyone is making comes from a GMB or BBC Breakfast interview with Redwood, then fuck you. And I mean that.
(Not aimed at you, Dave, I just don't want to make 4 different posts about this. There's a vanilla donut in the fridge with my name on it, and time is of the essence).

In % terms the EU as a whole does a vastly smaller amount of trade with UK than the UK does with the EU. This is true of every country in the EU. As an entity it's pretty clear the trade between the EU and the UK is not remotely equitable, and as such, does not present any kind of scenario where we can negotiate from a position of anything but weakness -- hence May's begging bowl deal.

I know this stuff because I look for it. I don't believe remainers, or Brexiters, or the UK government, or the opposition, or the EU, or the tabloids.
There are fact check sites, statistic sites, opinion sites, all of which can be cross checked. Which, as long as you're asking simple fact based questions isn't as tedious and time consuming as it sounds. And it can also serve to filter out a lot of partisan bias.

Having done all that when Mrs May comes along telling me that the NHS will get that big injection of cash when we leave the EU. I can confidently call it bollocks, because I know that the money will be borrowed and has fuck all to do with Brexit.

And just to double down, if anyone's opinions and arguments are entirely formed from listening to politicians and reading tabloids, you, and you alone, are entirely responsible for the shit state this country is in. :D


South Korea.
Trade with Korea is worth about £6 billion to the UK economy. Trade with the EU £300 billion+.
Not that anyone knows what the EU deal with Korea is, or if one we negotiated ourselves would, or even could, be any better.
Again, this kind of comment is straight out of the politicians 'factless bullshit handbook'.
Pick a strong economy... Korea, China, India.
Use a phrase like 'we're free to make our own deals'.
Do not mention what the current EU deal with your chosen country is, or how negotiating your own deal could potentialky make it any better.

The truth is if you want Brexit you'll buy into the bullshit. You'll buy into the idea that in 40 years things might be better. You'll buy into the idea that one of the Tory geniuses responsible for this current shit show will be able to negotiate deals with Korea or China that will make up for leaving the EEA.
You'll buy into John Redwood being the foremost economist on the planet. A man with a better understanding of business that literally anyone.
You'll even buy into the idea that everyone who voted for Brexit desperately wanted hard Brexit. Even television images of 'leading Brexiters' saying 'leaving the EU doesn't mean leaving the common market', will not convince you that everyone didn't vote for good old Project Fear.
You might even buy into the idea that voting for something you were lied to about is democracy, and as such can't be changed.

Anyway, donut time.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:08 pm

palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:15 am
mkhammer wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:16 am
End of the day it's really really simple.....

We Want and will trade with Europe,in out it will continue...they need us as much as we need them..
We will not make it harder...they WILL NOT make it harder.....they hinder our trade with them,
they suffer it makes no sense...

What Leavers are saying is we want to trade world wide,and not be limited..
Every country.. Euro or not.......should have that right surely FFS...
And not have a bunch of people,we don't know and are in the mainpart unelected,basically
saying NO you cant trade with them.......Democracy ...My arse.

There's so many expanding markets now.....any Business,from your household,your company,
thru Big Corporations,investment funds....Governments...you name it...it's all about options,
being able to get best value,and not be limited to 20% of the market your interested in.
It's not rocket science it's simple fact.
All the Business world wants is security...to know whats gonna happen...that's the prob at moment.
A defined leave...(Which it is to me)...right changes to make lets crack on...
Stay.....stay as we are...again crack on...they just like knowing,but I can guarantee the
Majority of Business.....if we could have had a smooth passage out,would prefer,free trade
as opposed to limited trade.
But I do understand it's a huge leap of faith for some,and I get the,devil you know thing.

People are scared of change...we cant change that,but if you don't look to the future,and get
involved in whats happening worldwide,and join in,you'll eventually start to stagnate,not
overnight but over time.....now is the time to update and move on,from the limitations
we have by being stuck in this Eurozone thing.

We're not pulling up sticks and moving to the Caribbean..we're still European.

The other stuff...Again it's Simple I/we want the Government (Whoever that may) be,who we
as the UK, Elect..to have Control and the power to run the Country in a way that benefits
the UK in 2019 and moving forward,and not be overseen by an old fashioned bunch of Cronies,
who only have their best interests at heart...
Talking of 'their best interests at heart', the number of MP's on both sides of the house whose own constituents voted to leave yet are either voting against this deal, however bad it is, or are campaigning for a second referendum, is a disgrace.

Yes mate said on here before somewhere....not exact but 60% of labour MPs are representing a leave
vote...going by constituencies, and not one is stepping up,speaking out,in support of leave,somewhere
around 30/35% of them actually voted leave themselves...

Tories.. over 70% of their constituencies voted leave......and they get slagged of by everyone cos
some of them are sticking by their guns.....in wanting a leave means leave...

Pretty much split on how they(Tory MPs) actually voted....

Side note......We voted to "leave" the EU end of....was not a vote on "Successful Negotiations"
taking place......if people consider the negotiations unsuccessful......fair enough...free country,
but we still leave.....it's in the statute books as law now.....
So quite possibly we could say....any MPs that step forward/vote against leaving are actually
breaking the Law....one for the Lawyers :lol:

Should the UK Remain or Leave the European Union....can't be anymore straight forward....
there is no argument......
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by mkhammer » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:48 pm

terrya1965 wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:13 am
mkhammer wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:41 am


Sorry Tel but that Tories are only for the rich thing,belongs in the 19th Century...
It's the working Classes that vote the Tories in,ask around your working class mates..see who they
vote for...
London is an anomaly give you that if you live there,baffles me why is so strong labour,its the
only way labour get a sniff of getting in along with scouseland of course.. :lol: ,if we're honest about it.
...the UK map is Blue....affluent to working class areas.
The Tory thing is all about spending....keeping money moving,hence low direct taxes,screw
the working classes they screw themselves...the system breaks down...

People buy stuff...means people make stuff....means employment,means more people paying tax,
Money Movement is key to them.

Labour have different approach....they Tax the merry fuck out of people,means they got
the bucks to win voters over....People on Benefits earning more than a Guy/Girl going
out to work...etc....eventually the Economy Stagnates....Countries screwed...send for
the Tories to put it Straight again.....its a vicious circle we're in.

There might be Crap Companies taking advantage mate..Government need tighter controls
on them...give you that....

But trust me mate the Tories don't hate and punish the less well off..
Spending money is the key to any economy and that is the most important thing,so we are both in agreement with that.

But in the last 10 years we've had Austerity,where we have hardly had any growth in the economy at all.Or is that the tories making that up to benefit the well off?Small pay rises and no money for Councils(Policing,Schools,NHS),Defence,Pensions etc,basically no money for anything..For the 5th richest nation in the world,I find that appalling.

I am no Lefty,I would just like to see a government that`s a bit fairer to society and I don`t think the tories are,that`s all.

Glad we agree on something Tel... :lol:

Unfortunately Money rules.....it's about using it right...just one example of the way I see it..

NHS....everyone...EVERYONE says pump more money into ....OK we'll put more money in,
heres a 100 mill whatever,crack on....more beds,more doctors,more nurses.....uh uh...NO...
The Drug companies...Services...Utilities...all suppliers in fact....rub their hands together,
oooh time to whack our prices up......Drug companies especially,dread to think how much they
drain from the NHS....£80/90 for a pill worth about 50p....crazy...

The Money doesn't go where it's needed,it's a fuck,cos a lot of our investment funds,have money
in the Drug companies....and a lot of our Pension funds are linked in with these Investment funds..

It's all very confusing mate....does me head in.. :lol:

So need to get other things in place before you give it extra funding otherwise the money is just
sucked outta the system....
There's more than enough money goes into the NHS IMO.......it's the structure of it...plus things
like overcrowding.....hospitals simply aren't able to cope....could give them billions,won't stop
people waiting 5/6 hours in corridors to be seen,there's just no room...
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:40 pm

Leaving the politics aside for a moment the big problem the NHS has is organisation.
My mum has had a serious infection since the beginning of the year. Firstly the GP misdiagnosed it as just a minor sinus problem 'leave it, it will clear up in 6 months', 4 months later the pain is so bad she's in A&E.
She goes back to the doctor who literally gives the same diagnosis, and sends her to have her ear syringed because the untreated infection has made her deaf in one ear.
The nurse doing the syringing looks in her ear for 3 seconds and tells her 'it's not blocked, so there's no point syringing it'.
All this bollocks results in a month long hospital stay, not to mention the worry of a specialist refusing to rule out the possibility of a tumor.
Then we have various appointments being contradicted and cancelled by different departments and doctors for almost six months.

How in an age where technology is so advanced can one doctor make you appointments for a biopsy and a cat scan, and the day before another doctor tell you not to bother going? And yes, they did ask why those appointments weren't attended.

I dread to think of the time and money wasted on something that could probably have been cleared up by a course of antibiotics.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by terrya1965 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:58 pm

Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:40 pm
Leaving the politics aside for a moment the big problem the NHS has is organisation.
My mum has had a serious infection since the beginning of the year. Firstly the GP misdiagnosed it as just a minor sinus problem 'leave it, it will clear up in 6 months', 4 months later the pain is so bad she's in A&E.
She goes back to the doctor who literally gives the same diagnosis, and sends her to have her ear syringed because the untreated infection has made her deaf in one ear.
The nurse doing the syringing looks in her ear for 3 seconds and tells her 'it's not blocked, so there's no point syringing it'.
All this bollocks results in a month long hospital stay, not to mention the worry of a specialist refusing to rule out the possibility of a tumor.
Then we have various appointments being contradicted and cancelled by different departments and doctors for almost six months.

How in an age where technology is so advanced can one doctor make you appointments for a biopsy and a cat scan, and the day before another doctor tell you not to bother going? And yes, they did ask why those appointments weren't attended.

I dread to think of the time and money wasted on something that could probably have been cleared up by a course of antibiotics.
Spot on..The right arm doesn't know what the left arm is doing.Mind you,it`s not just in the NHS,it's everywhere.You think to yourself,with the internet and technology,why is so hard to sort?
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by FlatCapDave » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:49 am

Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
What? You do understand that EVERY trade deal we have is via the EU? With every country in the EU and EEA we currently have a free trade agreement, and because we're in the customs union there's hugely reduced resources and expenditure for all governments in that area.

So, as soon as we leave, every trade agreement becomes null and void.
Those trade deals as they are will become null and void, but do you seriously expect me to believe that they'll remain as such? Our current trade set up is as it is because we're in the EU! Once we leave we can restructure and move forward, it's not as if we lose those EU deals and just go away and cry in the corner.

We move on, we strike new deals, we operate like the many countries who aren't in the EU.
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
That's increased barriers with the countries in the EEA who, let's not forget, are responsible for pretty much half of all imports and exports.
Again, how do the many other nations who operate outside the EU manage it? Are they all falling apart?
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
Everything is replaced by WTO agreements -- and this is assuming the WTO even offer us a deal -- with everyone else.

And FYI those WTO agreements aren't 'better'. If they were Switzerland and Norway wouldn't be in the EEA.
Yeah, the WTO are going to leave a country of our economic capacity out in the cold, right? Come on man. Where there's money to be made, it'll happen. And there's money in the UK.

And it won't be as straight forward as being "better" outside the EU, it'll swing and roundabout, just as the benefits of being in the EU do. Some deals will be better, some won't. That's how trade goes.
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
As for the entirely fatuous argument that 'they need us as much as we need them'? It's a fucking John Redwood quote. Seriously if the argument anyone is making comes from a GMB or BBC Breakfast interview with Redwood, then fuck you. And I mean that.

(Not aimed at you, Dave, I just don't want to make 4 different posts about this. There's a vanilla donut in the fridge with my name on it, and time is of the essence).
No offence taken, but although that quote is very simplistic, he's right to a degree. While the EU, collectively, could survive without us, the truth is that they won't choose to.

Again, money, men in suits, all that jazz. Where there's money to be made, it'll be made. No one is leaving the 5th biggest economy on the planet out in the cold for idealistic reasons. It's just not going to happen.
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
In % terms the EU as a whole does a vastly smaller amount of trade with UK than the UK does with the EU. This is true of every country in the EU. As an entity it's pretty clear the trade between the EU and the UK is not remotely equitable, and as such, does not present any kind of scenario where we can negotiate from a position of anything but weakness -- hence May's begging bowl deal.
I may be showing my lack of attention in school as a lad here, but I don't get this "the EU does less trade with us than we do with them" stuff.

Trade is a two-way street. Either we buy more of their shit than they buy of ours, or vice versa, right? Either way, for either side to lose that wouldn't be ideal.

What I can pretty much guarantee is that the EU won't be wanting to lose either our products, or our custom. The same goes for us, we won't be wanting to lose their products or their custom.

Neither side will be all that keen on telling the other to fuck off, I know that much. Anyone who claims otherwise is being a tad naughty I think.
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
South Korea.

Trade with Korea is worth about £6 billion to the UK economy. Trade with the EU £300 billion+.
Yes, at the moment. That's the key point in this fact that no one ever seems to mention.

Once our involvement with the EU changes it makes sense that our trading levels with various other nations will also change, no? We'll be holding the keys to those trade deals (along with the nation in question, obviously) and we can deal as we see fit.

It may be a simple analogy, but this kind of talk is a bit like me living in a certain town, using a certain supermarket because I have a discount and deals card with that supermarket. The conditions of this card is that I'm not allowed to go to any other supermarkets without running it past them first.

My deals and discounts card with supermarket A means that I really can't go to, and in all honesty don't have much need to go to supermarket B,C, or D, so my spending there is small as you'd imagine.

My discounts and deal card with supermarket A is ending in a week though, along with the restrictions that come with it, so now I'm more interested in the one-off deals and offers from supermarkets B,C, and D.

If someone said to me "yeah, but your past spending with them is a fraction of the spending you've done in supermarket A over the years mate, that means those other supermarkets are rubbish, right?" my answer would surely be that it doesn't mean that, it just means that once my membership of supermarket A is now on an even level with the other supermarkets I will be looking at what they all have to offer as a collective now?

You get what I'm saying?
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
Not that anyone knows what the EU deal with Korea is, or if one we negotiated ourselves would, or even could, be any better.
This is part of the main thrust of the problem for me. People, for some reason, are looking for cast-iron guarantees.

That's not how business works I'm afraid. What we'll do is take what we have to offer to the world and see who's willing to trade with us.
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
Again, this kind of comment is straight out of the politicians 'factless bullshit handbook'.

Pick a strong economy... Korea, China, India.

Use a phrase like 'we're free to make our own deals'.

Do not mention what the current EU deal with your chosen country is, or how negotiating your own deal could potentialky make it any better.
I fail to see how that's "bullshit" really. Let's look at it in stages.

Pick a strong economy - Well, usually it's strong economies that have the most to offer, which is why their economies are strong, so that makes sense. it would make less sense to pick a weak economy, wouldn't it? I doubt we'll be trading with Swaziland any time soon!

Although here's a fun fact for you. Of the top 20 slowest economies on the planet, over half are EU member states, with three of the top five being EU members.

Germany is on that list, sitting just outside the top 10. You know the primary reason given for them being included?

"The largest E.U. economy is hindered by the poor performance of other member nations" according to Business Insider website.

You know who else is on that list? France. You know who isn't on that list?

Image

That's right. Us.

Use a phrase like we're free to make our own deals - Well, we are free to make our own deals, aren't we? We can all criticise the current Government and their ability to do that but that isn't a reflection on what we have to offer, that's a reflection on the capacity of our democratically elected officials to do their job.

Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
The truth is if you want Brexit you'll buy into the bullshit. You'll buy into the idea that in 40 years things might be better. You'll buy into the idea that one of the Tory geniuses responsible for this current shit show will be able to negotiate deals with Korea or China that will make up for leaving the EEA.

You'll buy into John Redwood being the foremost economist on the planet. A man with a better understanding of business that literally anyone.

You'll even buy into the idea that everyone who voted for Brexit desperately wanted hard Brexit. Even television images of 'leading Brexiters' saying 'leaving the EU doesn't mean leaving the common market', will not convince you that everyone didn't vote for good old Project Fear.

You might even buy into the idea that voting for something you were lied to about is democracy, and as such can't be changed.
Do you want to know what I buy into?

I buy into a liberal, left-of-centre minority who aren't happy that we have a conservative, right-of-centre government in power.

I buy into that minority not being happy that decisions made by unelected EU bureaucrats are soon to be made by a democratically elected British government that they don't like.

I buy into a liberal minority who would rather circumvent democracy because the current results don't suit them, and who see the EU as a sneaky way of lessening the effectiveness of the democratically elected British government that they don't like.

I buy into the liberal minority not being happy with control over British borders being put into the hands of the democratically elected British government, because they don't like the way that'll go most likely.

What I buy into, for the most part, is that the liberal minority in this country like democracy when it's rolling in the direction they want it to, but when it goes against them they look for do-overs and diluting of powers.

What I buy into, is the fact that the people have spoken. This is democracy in action, and the smug liberals can try to explain it all away by claiming the uneducated buffoons were duped into voting a certain way, and that the only real answer is to take them firmly by the hand like a disobedient child and correct them. Little do they know that such attitudes are what makes sure they're always going to be in the minority, looking for ways to disrupt democracy.

What I buy into most of all though, is that for all our faults we're not that bad a country. Sure, I don't live there all that much these days but for a relatively small nation we do okay I think.

And we'll do okay in future, despite the hopes of the liberal minority that this won't be the case.
Neville Bartos wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:22 pm
Anyway, donut time.
Enjoy ;)
0 x

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