The Mogg is circling...

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Marco Boogers Boots
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Marco Boogers Boots » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:09 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:56 am
palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:47 am
Last night's confidence vote showed how dangerous the prospect of Corbyn in number 10 is perceived.


Any sort of less toxic a brand and we'd have a Labour government already.
Unfortunately we have the worst of both worlds at the moment. A government unfit and unable to govern and an opposition unfit even to oppose. But unbelievably I do agree with Corbyn that if the bloody woman wants dialogue a "no deal whatsoever" Brexit has to be taken off the agenda. Such a scenario could potentially cost businesses millions.
What no-deal means is completely unknown - a fact that I will admit is dangerous in itself.

But, with the PM's deal (rightly) being voted down if we are to carry out the wishes of the people (assuming a second referendum doesn't happen of course) we have 2 choices:

1. Extend article 50, get our shit together and go back with something to discuss and renegotiate with the EU.
2. Cross party talks QUICKLY, and try to get something done by 29 March - because unless another act of parliament is passed that is when we leave under a "no deal" (whatever the fuck that means) and start under WTO terms.

Now, I could be wrong (it has happened once before :lol: ) but; if we rule out walking away without a deal we have nothing to negotiate against. The threat of us walking away is currently the only thing that MAY get the EU to cede some ground. Going in to a negotiation, admitting that you simply do not have any alternative to what you are offered is guaranteed to get you a shit deal.

We have heard from Corbyn that he sat down with the IRA, Hamas etc because dialogue is how you move forward. Well, perhaps sitting down with your own fucking Prime Minister to discuss one of the most important political decisions the country has made in living memory will help us move forward, eh comrade? Also, let's not forget that he is paid an additional sum of money on top of his MP's salary because, as leader of the opposition, he is EXPECTED to spend additional time liaising and debating with the government of the day.

Corbyn (and many, many others from all sides) are playing party politics with the future of the country. It fucking stinks.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by jameskel » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:06 am

self serving cunts, every one of them
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Whiskyman
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:36 am

Marco Boogers Boots wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:09 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:56 am


Unfortunately we have the worst of both worlds at the moment. A government unfit and unable to govern and an opposition unfit even to oppose. But unbelievably I do agree with Corbyn that if the bloody woman wants dialogue a "no deal whatsoever" Brexit has to be taken off the agenda. Such a scenario could potentially cost businesses millions.
What no-deal means is completely unknown - a fact that I will admit is dangerous in itself.

But, with the PM's deal (rightly) being voted down if we are to carry out the wishes of the people (assuming a second referendum doesn't happen of course) we have 2 choices:

1. Extend article 50, get our shit together and go back with something to discuss and renegotiate with the EU.
2. Cross party talks QUICKLY, and try to get something done by 29 March - because unless another act of parliament is passed that is when we leave under a "no deal" (whatever the fuck that means) and start under WTO terms.

Now, I could be wrong (it has happened once before :lol: ) but; if we rule out walking away without a deal we have nothing to negotiate against. The threat of us walking away is currently the only thing that MAY get the EU to cede some ground. Going in to a negotiation, admitting that you simply do not have any alternative to what you are offered is guaranteed to get you a shit deal.

We have heard from Corbyn that he sat down with the IRA, Hamas etc because dialogue is how you move forward. Well, perhaps sitting down with your own fucking Prime Minister to discuss one of the most important political decisions the country has made in living memory will help us move forward, eh comrade? Also, let's not forget that he is paid an additional sum of money on top of his MP's salary because, as leader of the opposition, he is EXPECTED to spend additional time liaising and debating with the government of the day.

Corbyn (and many, many others from all sides) are playing party politics with the future of the country. It fucking stinks.
I completely agree with you when it comes to what our elected politicians SHOULD be doing. Unfortunately they rarely do. The referendum itself was a political manoeuvre by David Cameron to pacify, as he saw it, those voters who had deserted his party in favour of UKIP. I think we now realise that as many, if not more, UKIP voters were former Labour voters rather than Tory ones.

The debate about PR is another issue entirely but I think is relevant in the current context. I have never voted UKIP, in large part because whether ir not I agree with their views I would never vote for a single issue party. However I think it borders on the obscene that a party that attracted almost 4 million votes in 2015 (12.5% or 1 in 8 of votes cast) was rewarded with precisely ZERO MP's in the house to espouse the views of 12.5% of the voters who voted for them. To put it into perspective the SNP won just under 1.5 million votes but ended up with 57 seats in the house and just as able to influence English, Welsh and Northern Irish politics as well as Scottish issues. That 1.5 million Scots have 57 MP's to represent them yet 3.6 million Brits, including Scots, have none isn't democracy by any definition that I know.

UKIP is a minority party, so are the BNP and The Greens. However obscene most of us find the politics of the BNP or however impractical many of the ideas of the Greens those peopkle who vote for them still deserve a voice. To deprive them of that voice is the complete opposite of what democracy should stand for. And if UKIP had been more relevant, by which I mean if it had more MP's reflecting it's vote, maybe many of those Tories and Socialists with Brexit views would have found a comfortable home there and been able to formulate other policies to deal with non European issues to propel them into the main political spectrum and avoid the whole referendum and post referendum fiasco unfolding in front of our eyes.

Just a thought/ ;)
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:56 am
palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:47 am
Last night's confidence vote showed how dangerous the prospect of Corbyn in number 10 is perceived.


Any sort of less toxic a brand and we'd have a Labour government already.
Unfortunately we have the worst of both worlds at the moment. A government unfit and unable to govern and an opposition unfit even to oppose. But unbelievably I do agree with Corbyn that if the bloody woman wants dialogue a "no deal whatsoever" Brexit has to be taken off the agenda. Such a scenario could potentially cost businesses millions.
This is why article 50 will have to be extended.The no deal scenario will not be sanctioned. It's a tidy mess and unfortunately the PM is not an individual with any charismatic influence on proceedings.

You would think in a political vacuum,a natural leader would emerge.
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Whiskyman
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am

BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:56 am


Unfortunately we have the worst of both worlds at the moment. A government unfit and unable to govern and an opposition unfit even to oppose. But unbelievably I do agree with Corbyn that if the bloody woman wants dialogue a "no deal whatsoever" Brexit has to be taken off the agenda. Such a scenario could potentially cost businesses millions.
This is why article 50 will have to be extended.The no deal scenario will not be sanctioned. It's a tidy mess and unfortunately the PM is not an individual with any charismatic influence on proceedings.

You would think in a political vacuum,a natural leader would emerge.
Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
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BlackDiamond
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:26 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

This is why article 50 will have to be extended.The no deal scenario will not be sanctioned. It's a tidy mess and unfortunately the PM is not an individual with any charismatic influence on proceedings.

You would think in a political vacuum,a natural leader would emerge.
Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess.
The PM is unsympathetic to a referendum and wishes to find an acceptable modification to option 1.The House will not countenance option 2 which leads us down the path to article 50 extensions, if a modification to option 1 can't be found quickly.
Whether future situational machinations reach option 3 attractiveness might be the result of simple fatigue.

It's not completely fucked at the moment but it's quite badly fucked...Europe probably think we are in check mate - but we are better than that...or we used to be
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by palerider » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:57 am

Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
BlackDiamond wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

This is why article 50 will have to be extended.The no deal scenario will not be sanctioned. It's a tidy mess and unfortunately the PM is not an individual with any charismatic influence on proceedings.

You would think in a political vacuum,a natural leader would emerge.
Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
I disagree.

The argument that we didn't know what we were voting for gives the impression the the electorate were imbeciles. I think the country is a damn-sight more tuned in than Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry and Gina Miller realise.

And in any case. The democratic vote didn't say 'please read the small print' on the ballot paper. The result was close but it matters not if it was won by a single vote after 25 re-counts.

Leave won.

So Remain should not be on the table IF there is a second referendum.

You can have a variety of Norway, Canada, name any other country.....or No Deal.

But not Remain.

It's like buying a top player then saying 'You never told us he was going to be shit'.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by BlackDiamond » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:38 pm

palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:57 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am


Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
I disagree.

The argument that we didn't know what we were voting for gives the impression the the electorate were imbeciles. I think the country is a damn-sight more tuned in than Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry and Gina Miller realise.

And in any case. The democratic vote didn't say 'please read the small print' on the ballot paper. The result was close but it matters not if it was won by a single vote after 25 re-counts.

Leave won.

So Remain should not be on the table IF there is a second referendum.

You can have a variety of Norway, Canada, name any other country.....or No Deal.

But not Remain.

It's like buying a top player then saying 'You never told us he was going to be shit'.
Philip Hammond via The Telegraph has told business executives that no-deal Brexit will be stopped and that article 50 could be rescinded. This suggests that article 50 will be extended and used as a “sort of ultimate backstop if the work the government is doing in seeking to find a way forward fails to deliver”

We can see where the ducks are lining up.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Neville Bartos » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:01 pm

I still don't have an issue with the Norway+ solution that's been touted by a few MPs.
It seems like a good middle way and from what I've read the EU would prefer it to May's deal.
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Re: The Mogg is circling...

Post by Whiskyman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:22 pm

palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:57 am
Whiskyman wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am


Back in the day a natural leader would undoubtedly have come through. But there is not one individual I can think of from the current crop of MP's who I would trust to run a fucking bath, never mind the country.

And even if there was a natural leader the chances of getting anything remotely like agreement between the hardcore remainers and the Brexit -at-all-costs brigade are pretty non existent.

For me the only option is another referendum with a binding result. There should be 3 simple questions.

1. Accept May's deal
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Stay In the EU.

It's the only way I can see out of the current mess. The idiots who organised the first referendum didn't realise the different scenarios that would unfold and giving people effectively a yes or no question meant no bastard knew what they were voting for.

I'm happy to admit I voted remain. I did so not because of an unwavering belief in the EU but because I preferred to listen to business people's opinions rather than those of self seeking politicians in thrall to their local constituency committees.
I disagree.

The argument that we didn't know what we were voting for gives the impression the the electorate were imbeciles. I think the country is a damn-sight more tuned in than Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry and Gina Miller realise.

And in any case. The democratic vote didn't say 'please read the small print' on the ballot paper. The result was close but it matters not if it was won by a single vote after 25 re-counts.

Leave won.

So Remain should not be on the table IF there is a second referendum.

You can have a variety of Norway, Canada, name any other country.....or No Deal.

But not Remain.

It's like buying a top player then saying 'You never told us he was going to be shit'.
But if Remain shouldn't be on the agenda if/when a second referendum happens isn't that like saying the electorate shouldn't have the option of voting Labour next time because they rejected them at the last election? People's views change, as indeed does the comoposition of the electorate itself.

If, big if at this stage, there is to be a second referendum I think it should be on the agenda simply to allow people to have the option to change their mind, either way, just as in any other election. It is also worth noting that many people, at least that is my experience from people I know, didn't vote at all last time because they were not sure of what they were voting for or against.

Which doesn't mean they are imbeciles by any means but when you'reout look around you and ask yourself if you'd be happy having evryone you see over the age of majority serving on a jury if you were on trial ;)
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