So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Chat about anything football related here!
User avatar
Whiskyman
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:05 pm

So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby Whiskyman » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:41 pm

I suppose we first have to set the ground rules. FFS some people might even think Bobby Moore and Paolo Maldini were boring because their main job was to prevent the opposition's stars from performing. So for the purpose of simplicity I have taken a simple "goals scored" figure as the medium for calculating where we stand in the Premier League boredom stakes.

It may surprise some to know that under Moyes we have averaged 1.36 goals per game. Amazingly that puts us 8th, yes I was amazed too, highest goals per game scorers in the league. The obvious 6 are higher than us and in fact Manchester City's goals per game total is more than double ours. The oh so dull, according to Saints fans, Claude Puel and Leicester come in 7th (1.48)

But what is very interesting is that some of the managers who have been touted as a replacement for Moyes, should he go, are behind him in goals per game. Aren't you Eddie Howe? Averaging 1.21 per game. Chris Hughton weighs in with just 0-94 and Sean Dyche exactly 1. Rafa Benitez manages 1.06.

Nobody has suggested Woy as our next manager but I have seen some people actually suggesting they play attractive football. Not at 1.06 goals per game they don't. For everyone's information the two most boring, using the Whiskyman method for establishing a boredom count, are Huddersfield and West Brom, jointly managing 0-79. Swansea are just above them at 0.81 but, in fairness to Senor Carvalhal he hasn't been in charge long, so his predecessor, Paul Clement, gets my boring award as far as Swansea are concerned.

So if it's goals you want West Ham are the 8th highest scorers per game in the division. I don't know what all that proves , apart from the obvious that I have too much time on my hands and should possibly get out more, which I am going to do when Mrs W returns from the hairdresser, but goals are what most people like to see in games.

And of course the question has to be asked. If we are boring under Moyes what does that say about the 12 clubs scoring fewer per game than we do? But I don't hear too many Burnley fans complaining.

Oh, and someone's bound to ask. Everton are 11th (1.15). After us, Watford (1.24) and Bournemouth (1.21).
1 x
People who claim to be modest usually have a lot to be modest about.

User avatar
BlackDiamond
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby BlackDiamond » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:03 pm

Excellent analysis - however is it possible to score the "wrong" type of goal ? and if it is, how do we subtract these poorer efforts from the overall totals. In order to fully reward the meritorious achievements of say the ones we score...

...the reason I broach this: because the superior one in the household informed me, that a contestant on Masterchef had been turfed out of the kitchen early-doors,for serving Greg the "wrong" type of apple strudel.

Apparently this was only commented on, after two-thirds of the improper "strudel" had disappeared magically through the famous cake-hole...but I only add that for balance
1 x

User avatar
eskimo joe
Posts: 3817
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby eskimo joe » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:18 pm

Could be argued that goals don't necessarily make for an entertaining game.

On the same token you have to look at where the goals came. Take the Soton game, wasn't all boring, first half had three goals second none, now the second half was a snooze, and negative though really we only had to manage the game from half time onwards. And that's what he has set out to do for most of the games, and last nights game was typical of most, play not to lose.

The Southampton game came off the back of the crowd problem, but as soon as the job was done and all seemed honky dorey it was revert to type. But that's just my opinion.
0 x
God is playing a game of hide and seek with dire consequences.....Count me out!

User avatar
Clayton
Posts: 2028
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:29 pm

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby Clayton » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 pm

Thing is its not just about how many goals you score , but how you score them , how well the team play and whether or not you concede to many goals . Are the subs used correctly or in a inspiring way , brought on to late / to early . Their are a lot of variables to take into consideration when looking at the management of the team as a whole . I just dont like seeing us at home with 10 behind the ball in our half with just the 1 player in the opposition half . As far as I am concerned Moyes did his job getting us fit , ok he has had his fair share of injuries as far as key players go . We are a very unbalanced side due to poor transfer windows , so cant be easy for him , but he had a chance to change that and he brought in Hugill . We may never know if he would manage any different if we had better players in key positions ie; midfield , because he may not get the support of the owners , or he may be gone if we dont stay up .
On a personal note , I want him gone as I just dont like his demeanor , attitude or his management style , maybe we could keep him as a fitness coach , i am genuinely amused .
0 x

User avatar
Mikeveep
Posts: 990
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 pm
Location: Trendy Walthamstow

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby Mikeveep » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:46 pm

Joe. A team starts the game with an attacking/defending balance.

When you are three down the balance necessarily changes, probably to all out attack,thus the opponents are FORCED back and in a team like ours with no bursters in midfield we are defending for a long part of the game. I really hate this part of the game being derided as SITTING back.
1 x

User avatar
eskimo joe
Posts: 3817
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby eskimo joe » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:51 pm

Mikeveep wrote:Joe. A team a the game with an attacking/defending balance.

When you are three down the balance necessarily changes, probably to all out attack,thus the opponents are FORCED back and in a team like ours with no bursters in midfield we are defending for a long part of the game. I really hate this part of the game being derided as SITTING back.


I get your point and agree, but in this case I think it was more management than forced pressure throughout, just how I saw it.
0 x
God is playing a game of hide and seek with dire consequences.....Count me out!

User avatar
palerider
Posts: 5433
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:35 am
Location: Somerset

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby palerider » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Even Allardyce teams scored goals, usually as a result of his Opta stats method of hoofing into the box and getting the knock downs. But by Christ it was awful to watch.

Moyes isn't Shrek. He's better than that and he's a decent enough man which does count for something in my book but not enough to keep him.

Get rid in the Summer with a well-done note from teacher and a good attendance sticker.
0 x
It's not the principle. It's the money.

User avatar
h69
Posts: 1842
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:51 pm
Location: Ruislip, Middlesex

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby h69 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:15 pm

Whiskyman wrote:I suppose we first have to set the ground rules. FFS some people might even think Bobby Moore and Paolo Maldini were boring because their main job was to prevent the opposition's stars from performing. So for the purpose of simplicity I have taken a simple "goals scored" figure as the medium for calculating where we stand in the Premier League boredom stakes.

It may surprise some to know that under Moyes we have averaged 1.36 goals per game. Amazingly that puts us 8th, yes I was amazed too, highest goals per game scorers in the league. The obvious 6 are higher than us and in fact Manchester City's goals per game total is more than double ours. The oh so dull, according to Saints fans, Claude Puel and Leicester come in 7th (1.48)

But what is very interesting is that some of the managers who have been touted as a replacement for Moyes, should he go, are behind him in goals per game. Aren't you Eddie Howe? Averaging 1.21 per game. Chris Hughton weighs in with just 0-94 and Sean Dyche exactly 1. Rafa Benitez manages 1.06.

Nobody has suggested Woy as our next manager but I have seen some people actually suggesting they play attractive football. Not at 1.06 goals per game they don't. For everyone's information the two most boring, using the Whiskyman method for establishing a boredom count, are Huddersfield and West Brom, jointly managing 0-79. Swansea are just above them at 0.81 but, in fairness to Senor Carvalhal he hasn't been in charge long, so his predecessor, Paul Clement, gets my boring award as far as Swansea are concerned.

So if it's goals you want West Ham are the 8th highest scorers per game in the division. I don't know what all that proves , apart from the obvious that I have too much time on my hands and should possibly get out more, which I am going to do when Mrs W returns from the hairdresser, but goals are what most people like to see in games.

And of course the question has to be asked. If we are boring under Moyes what does that say about the 12 clubs scoring fewer per game than we do? But I don't hear too many Burnley fans complaining.

Oh, and someone's bound to ask. Everton are 11th (1.15). After us, Watford (1.24) and Bournemouth (1.21).


It always depends on the situation in hand....Against Huddersfield away we won 4-1, against Stoke away we won 3-0. There was far less pressure on us despite us being down the bottom, there were plenty of games left. The southampton game was a good attacking display and we saw the game out conserving energy against a team that could have played until xmas without scoring. I have no issue with that.

You have to manage the game. Against Southampton, we sensed a weakness in their side early on and went for the jugular.....second half Moyes may or may not have told them to ease down but I think you all give him a lot of credit for the amount of influence he has.....I suspect what is more likely is that the players lowered their intensity sensing the game was won.

Last night Stoke had no intention of trying to win the game....they were uber defensive (quite why when it was a must win game I have no idea). We, on the other hand, were at least trying....yes, our crossing was poor (not above knee high) for the main and we had goals rightly ruled out for offside but we tried to win.
Moyes could have slung on another forward earlier but the onus was on Stoke to win because they had to, we did not so it was game management when Carroll and Lanzini are both semi fit. Seemed fine to me. Use them in an emergency if we are chasing the game. As for the mexican, he spends so much time getting fouled he would not have stood a chance last night.....when Cameron came on he must have committed the most fouls without getting booked in PL history.

At this stage of the season, points are all that matters and we got a point to move us further away from the Saints...If Southampton had done the same, they would have won the game v Chelsea....as it is I think they are now doomed....psychologically that must be devastating as was last night for Stoke.

Currently we are 8 points from 8th place given the lunacy of the PL despite starting a season so badly under Slaven. Part of that was our pisspoor preseasons....even in the Payet season we started appallingly. Maybe just maybe with a good and professional preseason which I am sure Moyes will encourage and some decent recruitment (not necessarily multimillion pound foreign imports) we can make up that small gap and finish around 8-10 which I believe is where we should be finishing at present.
1 x

User avatar
BillyDWhizz
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 7:34 pm

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby BillyDWhizz » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:24 pm

The thing with Moyes is...Well he's just so fucking bland. He's like a Morris Marina, mostly beige, boring as fuck and liable to break down when needed the most. We should've upgraded to at least a BMW 5 series by now.
0 x
I hate it when people don't know the difference between "your" and "you're". There so stupid.

User avatar
andyginbrasil
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:05 am
Location: Brasil

Re: So Just How Negative Is Moyes ?

Postby andyginbrasil » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:05 pm

How I love the Whiskyman method, very informative and very accurate.
Now here is some more data to enter, the question was Just How Negative Moyes is?
You are totally correct, we are the 8th team with the highest goals per game.....But we are 17th in chances created, so is this down to Moyes negative play, to actually create chances,I think so, by not allowing players to create chances or the inability to be able to make that killer pass because the manager wants you to stay back, pass sideways or backwards. How many times this season have we had a player in the oppositions penalty area with no options to pass to because MR Negativity has told them to stay back, Nobles statement after Obiang's goal against Spurs summed it up at the time, "I don't know what he was doing there the manager told us to stay back". We are second from bottom in the league, just above Swansea and one below BFS Everton on total number of shots, in 33 games we have mustered only 321 shots, West Brom, Stoke have all registered more, Crystal Palace have registered 431.Why is this, Mr Negativity doesn't play out and out strikers whose second nature it is to shoot and therefore increasing the chance of scoring luckily for us we are ranked 7th for shooting accuracy, which is why using the Whiskey man method tells us we are in the top ten on highest goals per game, accuracy helps, negativity doesn't. We do make it to 3rd in one league though, highest number of goals conceded, 59 with just Watford and Stoke conceding more, Even bottom placed WBA have conceded less. 51 of those 59 goals have been scored inside our area. Mr Negativity instructs the midfield to drop back when the opposition attacks, therefore they are allowed to stroll into our area at will and score.One of the biggest cheers that went up last night was when Zabba made a crunching tackle on the halfway line, that's what we are missing, the ability to win the ball in midfield or at least halt the oppositions progress. There are many more negative stats but enough is enough......so to answer the question...............very
Last edited by andyginbrasil on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x


Return to “Football Talk”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cockneyhammer and 28 guests