West Ham vs Man Utd Official Match Thread

[Whiskyman]

I find myself very much in the pro Moyes camp. Not because he is the new Guardiola. He isn't. But because he is, at least imo, the best we have had in a very long time and also the best we are likely to attract under the present ownership. When I think of some of the dross whose names have been suggested on forums, Gary Rowett and Lee Johnson are two I can readily recall, probably because ---well, think about it, just because : I even remember someone actually suggesting the bloody Cowley Brothers once. Mind you I have to hold my hands up and admit during his first spell I was one of the ones pushing Pellegrini's name.

Imo Moyes is the best option to modernise the club and push for the necessary upgrades to recruitment, scouting and other areas almost as important as what happens on the pitch. Of course he makes decisions we often disagree with but I'm sure if I supported Man City or Chelsea I would on occasions disagree with something Guardiola or Tuchel had done. Only after losing of course. Because hindsight is a wonderful decision making tool. Which is how we all know, for an absolute fact, that had Rice taken the penalty on Sunday we would have got a draw.

I would agree that David Moyes is shaping the team and building a structure that is very promising and his methods have been mostly positive.

And I would have no issue if he was rewarded by being made one of the higher salaried employees at the club. That seems only natural and sensible.
All obviously dependant on fulfilment of achievable goals and targets. Like last seasons qualification for Europe involvement.

Where I would hesitate in becoming a full-on 'fan boy', like the Gonz or C&H, is with some of the recent personnel aquisitions. I'm not seeing anything bold or exciting in this area. I'm not going to suggest that Kurt Zouma is an unwanted Chelsea defender and a bit of a scuffer. But he wasn't absolutely
essential or rather he doesn't make West Ham more dangerous where they needed to be.

It's where you put the priorities or seek the most effective usefulness for your money. I would have targeted Allan Saint-Maximin and Riyad Mahrez.
Both perfect fits for West Ham and importantly both quality footballers.

And David Moyes wouldn't need to alter any of his training methods or current tactical drills. Seems a missed opportunity to me.

But then the focus on Jesse Lingard eclipsed all that other good stuff...shame

I can see where you're coming from. But Riyad Mahrez ?? Is he really going to leave Manchester City and join West Ham.? And I share your opinion of Saint-Maximin, but imo the time to have gone for him would have been as an alternative to Benrahma. I don't see any scenario where both could play in the same side tbh.

I accept your point that Moyes is not without faults. But on the basis of being careful what I wish for I am of the opinion that he is as good as we are likely to be able to attract and a hell of a lot better than some of the names that have on occasions been punted around. Having supported West Ham for more years than I care to remember I am still, influenced as I am by our history (not to mention the words of that fucking song ) expecting the wheels to come off at some point. But I do feel that with Moyes at the helm we are more likely to be able to put the bloody things back on again than we would be with the customary calibre of managers we get linked with.

[h69]

I find myself very much in the pro Moyes camp. Not because he is the new Guardiola. He isn't. But because he is, at least imo, the best we have had in a very long time and also the best we are likely to attract under the present ownership. When I think of some of the dross whose names have been suggested on forums, Gary Rowett and Lee Johnson are two I can readily recall, probably because ---well, think about it, just because : I even remember someone actually suggesting the bloody Cowley Brothers once. Mind you I have to hold my hands up and admit during his first spell I was one of the ones pushing Pellegrini's name.

Imo Moyes is the best option to modernise the club and push for the necessary upgrades to recruitment, scouting and other areas almost as important as what happens on the pitch. Of course he makes decisions we often disagree with but I'm sure if I supported Man City or Chelsea I would on occasions disagree with something Guardiola or Tuchel had done. Only after losing of course. Because hindsight is a wonderful decision making tool. Which is how we all know, for an absolute fact, that had Rice taken the penalty on Sunday we would have got a draw.

I would agree that David Moyes is shaping the team and building a structure that is very promising and his methods have been mostly positive.

And I would have no issue if he was rewarded by being made one of the higher salaried employees at the club. That seems only natural and sensible.
All obviously dependant on fulfilment of achievable goals and targets. Like last seasons qualification for Europe involvement.

Where I would hesitate in becoming a full-on 'fan boy', like the Gonz or C&H, is with some of the recent personnel aquisitions. I'm not seeing anything bold or exciting in this area. I'm not going to suggest that Kurt Zouma is an unwanted Chelsea defender and a bit of a scuffer. But he wasn't absolutely
essential or rather he doesn't make West Ham more dangerous where they needed to be.

It's where you put the priorities or seek the most effective usefulness for your money. I would have targeted Allan Saint-Maximin and Riyad Mahrez.
Both perfect fits for West Ham and importantly both quality footballers.

And David Moyes wouldn't need to alter any of his training methods or current tactical drills. Seems a missed opportunity to me.

But then the focus on Jesse Lingard eclipsed all that other good stuff...shame

I dont share the view that Zouma was not essential. He may not be the pretty playing easy on the eye player up front you allude to but all decent sides are built from the back and having a good defence and CB is the start of that. We were playing with an ageing (if very good) Ogbonna and an ageing stop gap in Dawson last season and when Oggy got injured last season it was noticeable. Zouma is a dominant CB.

While I am still yet to be convinced about Diop, he does seem to play better when the other CB is dominant and potentially he and Zouma (both being French speakers) may be our CB pairing for the future so I see that as a good acquisition similar to Areola who will likely become our No.1 in the future. All reasonably aged.

I love your optimism about Mahrez but I doubt we could prise him out of City and to be honest, we now have enough forwards and really need a backup striker that will be of the same type as Antonio but it is not easy to find someone to play backup as Spurs have found and I dont want us to buy another Ajeti/Hugill/Perez just to pad out the squad.
If the striker is better than Antonio, he will threaten to leave so we would be back to square one. He did when Haller started until he realised he had the mobility of a traffic cone

As for St Maximin.....super player and if he stays fit all season then I suspect there will be a load of teams after him as I think Newcastle will get relegated this season. I have a friend who supports the Geordies and he says he is a 60 min player so I am not sure he would fit Moyes requirements.

[Whiskyman]

I think it comes down to a perceived competency rating. So we might place Thomas Tuchel very high on an imaginary scale, Whereas David Moyes polls around 45-53% approval rating rougly speaking and that's been pretty steady throughout his career.

Unless it's a C&H poll or a Gonzo podcast of course.

The 'usual suspects' mentioned, are probably simply people with longer memories who can remember the last fuckup. And like last Sunday, you don't have to wait long to find them. It was only three weeks ago, it was decided an additional forward could wait until next summer.

At least that is my understanding of the reasons some people might be more critical than others.

As said many times elsewhere, i don't havemuch of a dog in the fight, being neither very pro Moyes or very anti.

I’m guessing I’m one of those usual suspects .

Never liked Moyes don’t like him and never will but I’m man enough to hold my hands up and admit that he is changing my opinions slowly , a bit at a time .

He’s proved me wrong a few times now I’m pleased to say .
For example last Sunday .
I didn’t see the game , just highlights ( the link Rick posted in the pinned thread above is excellent by the way) but from what I saw and from what I’ve heard and read since we seem to have been a tad unlucky to lose as Moyes really went for it.

I’m hoping he instructs the kids & reserves to go for it tomorrow night as well although I’m not holding my breath.

We've got to hope he plays the kids and reserves, instead of risking injury to first team players, first mon ami.

[h69]

The Messiah was so fixated on Big Jesse I'm sure we missed out on other possibilities.

Only buying if it improves the squad is all very well but sometimes needs must.

Moyes mentioned at the weekend that the deal was dead early in the window as he sat down with OGS and he made it clear he wanted to keep Lingard and he wanted to stay so that was that. It was just the media and the fans who thought the deal would happen.

[h69]

I’m guessing I’m one of those usual suspects .

Never liked Moyes don’t like him and never will but I’m man enough to hold my hands up and admit that he is changing my opinions slowly , a bit at a time .

He’s proved me wrong a few times now I’m pleased to say .
For example last Sunday .
I didn’t see the game , just highlights ( the link Rick posted in the pinned thread above is excellent by the way) but from what I saw and from what I’ve heard and read since we seem to have been a tad unlucky to lose as Moyes really went for it.

I’m hoping he instructs the kids & reserves to go for it tomorrow night as well although I’m not holding my breath.

We've got to hope he plays the kids and reserves, instead of risking injury to first team players, first mon ami.

Most of whom played last night by the way. I think reserves rather than kids....but les see. I am going....for my sins

Areola
Fredericks
Diop
Dawson
Johnson

Noble
Kral

Lanzini
Masuaku
OkoFlex

Yarmolenko

[Newmarket]

We've got to hope he plays the kids and reserves, instead of risking injury to first team players, first mon ami.

Most of whom played last night by the way. I think reserves rather than kids....but les see. I am going....for my sins

Areola
Fredericks
Diop
Dawson
Johnson

Noble
Kral

Lanzini
Masuaku
OkoFlex

Yarmolenko

I reckon you could be right there except somehow I don’t reckon Moyes will fancy the flex .

Just a feeling but if he wasn’t deemed good enough for the Jock league he’d have to have improved ten fold over the summer.

And it takes a good deal to impress Bug eyes.

I mean , why play okoflex at OT when he could squeeze an extra defender in

[BlackDiamond]

I would agree that David Moyes is shaping the team and building a structure that is very promising and his methods have been mostly positive.

And I would have no issue if he was rewarded by being made one of the higher salaried employees at the club. That seems only natural and sensible.
All obviously dependant on fulfilment of achievable goals and targets. Like last seasons qualification for Europe involvement.

Where I would hesitate in becoming a full-on 'fan boy', like the Gonz or C&H, is with some of the recent personnel aquisitions. I'm not seeing anything bold or exciting in this area. I'm not going to suggest that Kurt Zouma is an unwanted Chelsea defender and a bit of a scuffer. But he wasn't absolutely
essential or rather he doesn't make West Ham more dangerous where they needed to be.

It's where you put the priorities or seek the most effective usefulness for your money. I would have targeted Allan Saint-Maximin and Riyad Mahrez.
Both perfect fits for West Ham and importantly both quality footballers.

And David Moyes wouldn't need to alter any of his training methods or current tactical drills. Seems a missed opportunity to me.

But then the focus on Jesse Lingard eclipsed all that other good stuff...shame

I dont share the view that Zouma was not essential. He may not be the pretty playing easy on the eye player up front you allude to but all decent sides are built from the back and having a good defence and CB is the start of that. We were playing with an ageing (if very good) Ogbonna and an ageing stop gap in Dawson last season and when Oggy got injured last season it was noticeable. Zouma is a dominant CB.

While I am still yet to be convinced about Diop, he does seem to play better when the other CB is dominant and potentially he and Zouma (both being French speakers) may be our CB pairing for the future so I see that as a good acquisition similar to Areola who will likely become our No.1 in the future. All reasonably aged.

I love your optimism about Mahrez but I doubt we could prise him out of City and to be honest, we now have enough forwards and really need a backup striker that will be of the same type as Antonio but it is not easy to find someone to play backup as Spurs have found and I dont want us to buy another Ajeti/Hugill/Perez just to pad out the squad.
If the striker is better than Antonio, he will threaten to leave so we would be back to square one. He did when Haller started until he realised he had the mobility of a traffic cone

As for St Maximin.....super player and if he stays fit all season then I suspect there will be a load of teams after him as I think Newcastle will get relegated this season. I have a friend who supports the Geordies and he says he is a 60 min player so I am not sure he would fit Moyes requirements.

What i was suggesting is a forward was more a priority essential signing than a CB who demanded to be made the highest earner. I don't think he is even the second best footballer at the club. Which is plainly daft.

And the choice was either purchasing a forward or a CB, because the other money was targeted to replacing JLinz. We witnessed what happens when Antonio is unavailable and it reduces the teams threat level from carrying a credible threat to not carrying one. Yes we can play with a false 9 but what happens then...we score one deflected goal.

While having a new CB with a high self regard might be a minimal upgrade,it did not stop Lingard scoring unchallenged,when we all knew what was building. And it did not stop Ronaldo nearly be awarded a penalty for a clumsy challenge. If your brought in as a margue centre back then your challenges have got to be clean. Not half arsed with the timing.

All that's not to say we can't have a successful end to 2021 and capture a forward in the January transfer period. But will we though... the evidence of the last 12 months suggest we might stick again rather than twist.

[h69]

I dont share the view that Zouma was not essential. He may not be the pretty playing easy on the eye player up front you allude to but all decent sides are built from the back and having a good defence and CB is the start of that. We were playing with an ageing (if very good) Ogbonna and an ageing stop gap in Dawson last season and when Oggy got injured last season it was noticeable. Zouma is a dominant CB.

While I am still yet to be convinced about Diop, he does seem to play better when the other CB is dominant and potentially he and Zouma (both being French speakers) may be our CB pairing for the future so I see that as a good acquisition similar to Areola who will likely become our No.1 in the future. All reasonably aged.

I love your optimism about Mahrez but I doubt we could prise him out of City and to be honest, we now have enough forwards and really need a backup striker that will be of the same type as Antonio but it is not easy to find someone to play backup as Spurs have found and I dont want us to buy another Ajeti/Hugill/Perez just to pad out the squad.
If the striker is better than Antonio, he will threaten to leave so we would be back to square one. He did when Haller started until he realised he had the mobility of a traffic cone

As for St Maximin.....super player and if he stays fit all season then I suspect there will be a load of teams after him as I think Newcastle will get relegated this season. I have a friend who supports the Geordies and he says he is a 60 min player so I am not sure he would fit Moyes requirements.

What i was suggesting is a forward was more a priority essential signing than a CB who demanded to be made the highest earner. I don't think he is even the second best footballer at the club. Which is plainly daft.

And the choice was either purchasing a forward or a CB, because the other money was targeted to replacing JLinz. We witnessed what happens when Antonio is unavailable and it reduces the teams threat level from carrying a credible threat to not carrying one. Yes we can play with a false 9 but what happens then...we score one deflected goal.

While having a new CB with a high self regard might be a minimal upgrade,it did not stop Lingard scoring unchallenged,when we all knew what was building. And it did not stop Ronaldo nearly be awarded a penalty for a clumsy challenge. If your brought in as a margue centre back then your challenges have got to be clean. Not half arsed with the timing.

All that's not to say we can't have a successful end to 2021 and capture a forward in the January transfer period. But will we though... the evidence of the last 12 months suggest we might stick again rather than twist.

I get it but another wide forward/AM to go with Vlasic, Bowen, Benrahma, Yarmolenko ? I think we have enough there now. I wanted a striker but it needs to be the right player. I think we have enough wide forwards so while I would love Mahrez obviously, realistically we would never get him and we really need a backup striker.....but we really did need an upgrade at CB and cover at DM as well. Would Dawson Diop and Ogbonna really have sufficed all season ? Dawson was struggling, Ogbonna picks up a fair amount of injuries and both were reasonably old now.

I thought Zouma had 2 good games so far. Granted, Lingard scored a superb goal and I credit him for that but for me Zouma was still MoM and like numbers, you missed the point that there was no penalty so there is nothing to discuss there.
Its all about opinion and you can of course focus on one piece of play that could have been better while not mentioning the number of tackles on Ronaldo and clearances that saved us from conceding in the first half.

If we are going to get another forward in Jan or Summer, it has to be an out and out no. 9 and I have no idea who would come and share duties with Antonio.

[BlackDiamond]

What i was suggesting is a forward was more a priority essential signing than a CB who demanded to be made the highest earner. I don't think he is even the second best footballer at the club. Which is plainly daft.

And the choice was either purchasing a forward or a CB, because the other money was targeted to replacing JLinz. We witnessed what happens when Antonio is unavailable and it reduces the teams threat level from carrying a credible threat to not carrying one. Yes we can play with a false 9 but what happens then...we score one deflected goal.

While having a new CB with a high self regard might be a minimal upgrade,it did not stop Lingard scoring unchallenged,when we all knew what was building. And it did not stop Ronaldo nearly be awarded a penalty for a clumsy challenge. If your brought in as a margue centre back then your challenges have got to be clean. Not half arsed with the timing.

All that's not to say we can't have a successful end to 2021 and capture a forward in the January transfer period. But will we though... the evidence of the last 12 months suggest we might stick again rather than twist.

I get it but another wide forward/AM to go with Vlasic, Bowen, Benrahma, Yarmolenko ? I think we have enough there now. I wanted a striker but it needs to be the right player. I think we have enough wide forwards so while I would love Mahrez obviously, realistically we would never get him and we really need a backup striker.....but we really did need an upgrade at CB and cover at DM as well. Would Dawson Diop and Ogbonna really have sufficed all season ? Dawson was struggling, Ogbonna picks up a fair amount of injuries and both were reasonably old now.

I thought Zouma had 2 good games so far. Granted, Lingard scored a superb goal and I credit him for that but for me Zouma was still MoM and like numbers, you missed the point that there was no penalty so there is nothing to discuss there.
Its all about opinion and you can of course focus on one piece of play that could have been better while not mentioning the number of tackles on Ronaldo and clearances that saved us from conceding in the first half.

If we are going to get another forward in Jan or Summer, it has to be an out and out no. 9 and I have no idea who would come and share duties with Antonio.

A decent assessment and I take your point which is as valid as any other and a view not inconsistent with the general observations elsewhere. It's all about opinions and interpretations and the different talking points that these engender.

I would specifically argue, that unlike numbers, I did say he 'nearly' gave away a penalty - the emphasis on nearly - and that view was uniformly endorsed by the pundits on Sky and MOTD. Not that I'm aligning myself with those ex-pros; but that view did seem to be fairly consistent and it was shared later on Talksport.

It's basically all in the game and that's why we like talking about stuff, which drives the endless fascination, that a lot of people share. Not all the people do, but those with the right stuff...or wrong stuff , definately do

[h69]

Most of whom played last night by the way. I think reserves rather than kids....but les see. I am going....for my sins

Areola
Fredericks
Diop
Dawson
Johnson

Noble
Kral

Lanzini
Masuaku
OkoFlex

Yarmolenko

I reckon you could be right there except somehow I don’t reckon Moyes will fancy the flex .

Just a feeling but if he wasn’t deemed good enough for the Jock league he’d have to have improved ten fold over the summer.

And it takes a good deal to impress Bug eyes.

I mean , why play okoflex at OT when he could squeeze an extra defender in

He may not do since Okoflex played in the week, maybe he might pick another of the kids but I dont know too much about them. I only gambled on the flex as he played in the Celtic game preseason and scored so I thought he may be selected. Maybe instead he may go 3,5,2 since we have Masuaku there and play Yarmolenko and Lanzini up top.