The death penalty....Yes or no?

[Oziron]

It has never worked as a deterrent so that argument is void,

The current system puts scum bags like those mentioned in Prison (so for arguments sake they are out of society and might as well be dead)....does that stop other scum bags filling their space ?......No

Unfortunately there always have been and always will be cunts in this world who do heinous acts.....The threat of killing them
A)Won't stop them from committing offences
B) Won't stop others from doing similar offences.

All the death penalty does is give the relatives of the victim a sense of revenge and make lawyers fatter (as seen in States)

A big no from me (although secretly there are a couple of cunts in this world that I would gladly send to the gallows)

[dorsetdano]

Have always been against it solely because of there being so many miscarriages of justice over the years and for that reason I still say no. However for the heinous pre-meditated crimes like the one above plus Fred West, Huntley, Neilsen, Shipman etc, life should mean life and none of this respect their human rights and let them out after a few years crap.

Hi Dano, I'm talking beyond any doubt. The ones you mentioned are all in that bracket. They will never be released. They have taken lives and should pay with theirs. Or at least used for exploratory drugs into cancer and such.

Unfortunately the beyond doubt arguement doesn't hold. Timothy Evans was found guilty of murdering his wife at 10 Rillington place and was dispatched by the noose. The jury only took 40 minutes to convict him, the evidence was so overwhelming. His biggest crime was that he had a low IQ. Everyone thought it was a fair cop back in 1950 though. About 5 years later his landlord (John Christie) was convicted of a string of murders in the same property going back to 1943, well before Evans ever lived there and several of the murders he was hung for took place after Evans had copped it.

More recently there was a case where a lorry driver was convicted of brutally murdering a woman due to blood stains found on his shirt having the same blood type as the victim. She had the rarest blood type AB+ or something like that and he served about 15 years of a 30 year sentence, before someone had the bright idea of actually testing his blood and guess what he was the same rare blood type; so his conviction was overturned. Subsequently when DNA testing arrived, this categorically proved that the blood was his alone and there was no trace of this womans blood anywhere to found connected to him. He always claimed that he hadn't been within 30 miles of where she was murdered. He had been convicted unanimously and the miscarriage of justice was first brought to everyone's attention as it was the first ever broadcast of the BBC Rough Justice program back in the mid 80's. I had a quick look to find the case details but failed, I'll have another look tomorrow when I have more time. So for me, it will always be a no.

[palerider]

As you probably know, I've worked in a category A prison. I've dealt with drug-lords, old-school London gangsters and Yardie gangsters, all either responsible for, or doing the deed in person, of murder, and all serving life sentences. Life meaning life, which doesn't happen except in a handful of cases is another argument.

I have, however, come across a couple of high-profile cases which beggar belief. My late wife, who I met in the job and was a social worker in the prison used to have discussions with me about certain individuals who are born evil. She didn't agree but I maintain that is the case. Years ago the killing of 2-year old Jamie Bulger in Liverpool hit the headlines. His 11 year-old murderers, Venables and Thomson were convicted of the crime and sent to the relevant institutions that child killers go to. Both are now out, and leading we assume normal lives under different names.

Now the social workers will point to all sorts of reasons. Deprived upbringing, broken homes with no father-figure. Whatever, And it does appear that Venables was easily led on by Thomson. But psychiatric reports at the time indicated that even at such an age, Thomson was just evil.

In my neck of the woods recently, a taxi-driver, John Caldwell was given a life sentence for the murder of two Bristol prostitutes. He admitted his crimes and even mocked the parents of one of the girls in court. He was given a life sentence with recommendations that life would mean life. Wait for say 10 years when he complains his human rights being abused. And again, the man is evil. No remorse, nothing.

But going back to the couple of high-profile cases I was mentioning. I signed what was then called a D-notice which precluded me from talikng about individual cases. Just in case the Civil Service pension fund manager is a Hammers fan, reads this, and stops my monthly wedge, I won't mention names.

But both were child-killers. Both admitted their crimes. Both have shown no remorse whatsoever,

In general I'm against the death penalty. But in certain circumstances, not only do I agree with it. But I'd pay good money to pull the fucking lever.

[frogiron]

As you probably know, I've worked in a category A prison. I've dealt with drug-lords, old-school London gangsters and Yardie gangsters, all either responsible for, or doing the deed in person, of murder, and all serving life sentences. Life meaning life, which doesn't happen except in a handful of cases is another argument.

I have, however, come across a couple of high-profile cases which beggar belief. My late wife, who I met in the job and was a social worker in the prison used to have discussions with me about certain individuals who are born evil. She didn't agree but I maintain that is the case. Years ago the killing of 2-year old Jamie Bulger in Liverpool hit the headlines. His 11 year-old murderers, Venables and Thomson were convicted of the crime and sent to the relevant institutions that child killers go to. Both are now out, and leading we assume normal lives under different names.

Now the social workers will point to all sorts of reasons. Deprived upbringing, broken homes with no father-figure. Whatever, And it does appear that Venables was easily led on by Thomson. But psychiatric reports at the time indicated that even at such an age, Thomson was just evil.

In my neck of the woods recently, a taxi-driver, John Caldwell was given a life sentence for the murder of two Bristol prostitutes. He admitted his crimes and even mocked the parents of one of the girls in court. He was given a life sentence with recommendations that life would mean life. Wait for say 10 years when he complains his human rights being abused. And again, the man is evil. No remorse, nothing.

But going back to the couple of high-profile cases I was mentioning. I signed what was then called a D-notice which precluded me from talikng about individual cases. Just in case the Civil Service pension fund manager is a Hammers fan, reads this, and stops my monthly wedge, I won't mention names.

But both were child-killers. Both admitted their crimes. Both have shown no remorse whatsoever,

In general I'm against the death penalty. But in certain circumstances, not only do I agree with it. But I'd pay good money to pull the fucking lever.

Morning Mr. P -

The fact that there are people who do not deserve to live is not in doubt. As I said earlier, of course there are those whose removal from society permanently would actually improve it.

The issue is that as soon as the death penalty is on the statute book, it is available to the courts. Who get stuff wrong. Who are served by the old bill. Who get stuff wrong. Who are influenced by politicians. Who get stuff wrong.

It just doesn't work to say "It's only applicable when there is no doubt". The judicial system exists to determine that level of certainty in any conviction. And they get it wrong.

To those who use the "What if it was your child" argument as if that trumps everything, I would throw a question back at you.

If it was your son who was going to be executed for a crime he did not commit, in order that a lot of evil fuckers also get executed, would that be OK"?

I doubt anyone would view that with any degree of equanimity.

Evil people exist. But allowing the state to kill them also allows them to kill innocent people.

And that's not worth the risk.

[palerider]

As you probably know, I've worked in a category A prison. I've dealt with drug-lords, old-school London gangsters and Yardie gangsters, all either responsible for, or doing the deed in person, of murder, and all serving life sentences. Life meaning life, which doesn't happen except in a handful of cases is another argument.

I have, however, come across a couple of high-profile cases which beggar belief. My late wife, who I met in the job and was a social worker in the prison used to have discussions with me about certain individuals who are born evil. She didn't agree but I maintain that is the case. Years ago the killing of 2-year old Jamie Bulger in Liverpool hit the headlines. His 11 year-old murderers, Venables and Thomson were convicted of the crime and sent to the relevant institutions that child killers go to. Both are now out, and leading we assume normal lives under different names.

Now the social workers will point to all sorts of reasons. Deprived upbringing, broken homes with no father-figure. Whatever, And it does appear that Venables was easily led on by Thomson. But psychiatric reports at the time indicated that even at such an age, Thomson was just evil.

In my neck of the woods recently, a taxi-driver, John Caldwell was given a life sentence for the murder of two Bristol prostitutes. He admitted his crimes and even mocked the parents of one of the girls in court. He was given a life sentence with recommendations that life would mean life. Wait for say 10 years when he complains his human rights being abused. And again, the man is evil. No remorse, nothing.

But going back to the couple of high-profile cases I was mentioning. I signed what was then called a D-notice which precluded me from talikng about individual cases. Just in case the Civil Service pension fund manager is a Hammers fan, reads this, and stops my monthly wedge, I won't mention names.

But both were child-killers. Both admitted their crimes. Both have shown no remorse whatsoever,

In general I'm against the death penalty. But in certain circumstances, not only do I agree with it. But I'd pay good money to pull the fucking lever.

Morning Mr. P -

The fact that there are people who do not deserve to live is not in doubt. As I said earlier, of course there are those whose removal from society permanently would actually improve it.

The issue is that as soon as the death penalty is on the statute book, it is available to the courts. Who get stuff wrong. Who are served by the old bill. Who get stuff wrong. Who are influenced by politicians. Who get stuff wrong.

It just doesn't work to say "It's only applicable when there is no doubt". The judicial system exists to determine that level of certainty in any conviction. And they get it wrong.

To those who use the "What if it was your child" argument as if that trumps everything, I would throw a question back at you.

If it was your son who was going to be executed for a crime he did not commit, in order that a lot of evil fuckers also get executed, would that be OK"?

I doubt anyone would view that with any degree of equanimity.

Evil people exist. But allowing the state to kill them also allows them to kill innocent people.

And that's not worth the risk.

Bonjour Frog. I hope all is well at Frog Towers.

We've agreed on many things. Allardyce, music. Too many to remember. Oh. Avit being a cunt, I remember that one.

And we've disagreed. Ian Holm's nationality in 'The Day After Tomorrow' being one I recall. And I'm afraid to say I have to disagree with you on this one as well. In some cases, Old Sparky needs to make a guest appearance.

I don't like using my experience in these matters as an argument winner. But I've seen at first hand what these people are like. I've met them. Some, the 'gangsters' of whatever hue, are funny people who've in reality killed 'their own'. Ronnie and Reggie didn't go wasting old ladies.

A percentage however are oxygen-thieves. And as a Vietnam Vet would say.

You don't know man. You weren't there.

[palerider]

Hi Dano, I'm talking beyond any doubt. The ones you mentioned are all in that bracket. They will never be released. They have taken lives and should pay with theirs. Or at least used for exploratory drugs into cancer and such.

Unfortunately the beyond doubt arguement doesn't hold. Timothy Evans was found guilty of murdering his wife at 10 Rillington place and was dispatched by the noose. The jury only took 40 minutes to convict him, the evidence was so overwhelming. His biggest crime was that he had a low IQ. Everyone thought it was a fair cop back in 1950 though. About 5 years later his landlord (John Christie) was convicted of a string of murders in the same property going back to 1943, well before Evans ever lived there and several of the murders he was hung for took place after Evans had copped it.

More recently there was a case where a lorry driver was convicted of brutally murdering a woman due to blood stains found on his shirt having the same blood type as the victim. She had the rarest blood type AB+ or something like that and he served about 15 years of a 30 year sentence, before someone had the bright idea of actually testing his blood and guess what he was the same rare blood type; so his conviction was overturned. Subsequently when DNA testing arrived, this categorically proved that the blood was his alone and there was no trace of this womans blood anywhere to found connected to him. He always claimed that he hadn't been within 30 miles of where she was murdered. He had been convicted unanimously and the miscarriage of justice was first brought to everyone's attention as it was the first ever broadcast of the BBC Rough Justice program back in the mid 80's. I had a quick look to find the case details but failed, I'll have another look tomorrow when I have more time. So for me, it will always be a no.

Ok DD. And on previous cases I agree.

But you be the judge here.

I once had the dubious pleasure of being on the prison escort taking a little scamp to the Old Bailey. Interesting place. He was accused of rape. He'd allegedly broken into a house in West London and raped, at knife-point, a mother and her 12-year old daughter. Both vaginally and anally. I had all the good jobs. And he'd left DNA. You can probably guess from where.

The DNA proved that for him NOT to have done it was 1 in 57,000,000. He was sentenced to four life sentences for the four different counts of rape. This would have been in about 2002. He's probably out next Tuesday. His mother was in the gallery yelling at the judge that he was a 'fucking blind old cunt' Lovely family.

And the mother and daughter probably asked for it anyway. But he didn't kill them.

But if he had, ask yourself. If you'd been on the jury and you knew the death penalty was the likely result, would you have said not guilty ?

[frogiron]

Morning Mr. P -

The fact that there are people who do not deserve to live is not in doubt. As I said earlier, of course there are those whose removal from society permanently would actually improve it.

The issue is that as soon as the death penalty is on the statute book, it is available to the courts. Who get stuff wrong. Who are served by the old bill. Who get stuff wrong. Who are influenced by politicians. Who get stuff wrong.

It just doesn't work to say "It's only applicable when there is no doubt". The judicial system exists to determine that level of certainty in any conviction. And they get it wrong.

To those who use the "What if it was your child" argument as if that trumps everything, I would throw a question back at you.

If it was your son who was going to be executed for a crime he did not commit, in order that a lot of evil fuckers also get executed, would that be OK"?

I doubt anyone would view that with any degree of equanimity.

Evil people exist. But allowing the state to kill them also allows them to kill innocent people.

And that's not worth the risk.

Bonjour Frog. I hope all is well at Frog Towers.

We've agreed on many things. Allardyce, music. Too many to remember. Oh. Avit being a cunt, I remember that one.

And we've disagreed. Ian Holm's nationality in 'The Day After Tomorrow' being one I recall. And I'm afraid to say I have to disagree with you on this one as well. In some cases, Old Sparky needs to make a guest appearance.

I don't like using my experience in these matters as an argument winner. But I've seen at first hand what these people are like. I've met them. Some, the 'gangsters' of whatever hue, are funny people who've in reality killed 'their own'. Ronnie and Reggie didn't go wasting old ladies.

A percentage however are oxygen-thieves. And as a Vietnam Vet would say.

You don't know man. You weren't there.

Mate, I am not defending the indefensible. There are some vile human beings who do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us.

But I come back to the central point.

Are you willing to accept that at some point, some innocent kid is going to be executed for a crime he did not commit.

The fact that there are those who should be locked up until they die is, in my view, unavoidable. The fact they are not is shameful.

All the reasons for taking such a life - the foul things some people do to others, the hideous values they have, the disgusting crimes they commit - are on one side. And they are unquestionably true.

But are they worth the knowledge that someone's son is going to die for something he did not do?

[Gonzo]

Do I support the reintroduction of the death penalty . . . .. NO


Would I have laughed if the father of Holly Wells or Jessica Chapman had managed to find himself in a room with Ian Huntley and a crowbar? . . . . . . . . . . . in the words of Kevin Keegan I would 'love it'


I live three miles from Broadmoor and my friend is a nurse up there (that's the PC version for screw because I don't even think he knows what antiseptic cream is). When the Yorkshire Ripper was stabbed in the eye by another inmate my friend tells me that sympathy was in quite short supply.


My point is that whilst many don't like the premeditated thought of the death penalty we don't mind so much if they get bit of 'afters' as long as we haven't voted for it.

For instance if I told you that Rossie West had been locked in her cell by other inmates and was being tortured how high would it actually rank on the 'Bovered' rating? I would image most would say that it should not be condoned but many would be thinking that it couldn't have happened to a nicer girl.

[palerider]

Bonjour Frog. I hope all is well at Frog Towers.

We've agreed on many things. Allardyce, music. Too many to remember. Oh. Avit being a cunt, I remember that one.

And we've disagreed. Ian Holm's nationality in 'The Day After Tomorrow' being one I recall. And I'm afraid to say I have to disagree with you on this one as well. In some cases, Old Sparky needs to make a guest appearance.

I don't like using my experience in these matters as an argument winner. But I've seen at first hand what these people are like. I've met them. Some, the 'gangsters' of whatever hue, are funny people who've in reality killed 'their own'. Ronnie and Reggie didn't go wasting old ladies.

A percentage however are oxygen-thieves. And as a Vietnam Vet would say.

You don't know man. You weren't there.

Mate, I am not defending the indefensible. There are some vile human beings who do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us.

But I come back to the central point.

Are you willing to accept that at some point, some innocent kid is going to be executed for a crime he did not commit.

The fact that there are those who should be locked up until they die is, in my view, unavoidable. The fact they are not is shameful.

All the reasons for taking such a life - the foul things some people do to others, the hideous values they have, the disgusting crimes they commit - are on one side. And they are unquestionably true.

But are they worth the knowledge that someone's son is going to die for something he did not do?

In a nutshell no I'm not mate.

And I go back to what I said when replying to Dorset's post.

DNA.

Without it, no deal. His or her QC's can argue at length. But you can't enforce the death penalty. But when DNA was discovered, all bets were off.

And for that 1 in 57 million chance that it was in fact a goat farmer in Estonia wot dun it. Even though he'd never set foot outside his village.

I think I'd be prepared to take that risk.

[palerider]

Do I support the reintroduction of the death penalty . . . .. NO


Would I have laughed if the father of Holly Wells or Jessica Chapman had managed to find himself in a room with Ian Huntley and a crowbar? . . . . . . . . . . . in the words of Kevin Keegan I would 'love it'


I live three miles from Broadmoor and my friend is a nurse up there (that's the PC version for screw because I don't even think he knows what antiseptic cream is). When the Yorkshire Ripper was stabbed in the eye by another inmate my friend tells me that sympathy was in quite short supply.


My point is that whilst many don't like the premeditated thought of the death penalty we don't mind so much if they get bit of 'afters' as long as we haven't voted for it.

For instance if I told you that Rossie West had been locked in her cell by other inmates and was being tortured how high would it actually rank on the 'Bovered' rating? I would image most would say that it should not be condoned but many would be thinking that it couldn't have happened to a nicer girl.

One of the two I mentioned earlier was found hanged in his cell.

There were rumours a screw had been bribed to leave a couple of cell doors open that night down the segregation unit.

But even though it was at the height of political correctness, it blew over quite quickly.